[P4A] Chie Satonaka - Gameplay Discussion

[Amadeus46Art]

Dusk has got it right; since using 4A keeps you from doing 5AA, it's better to use it (thanks to advanced inputs) rather than just trying to wait and feel out the next 5A and risking an autocombo. You don't have to use 4A if you do 5A dash 5A though, because the dash would break up the autocombo input.

Also, Errol is also technically right; but that's true of any and all frame traps. Yeah you're + on block, but with 5A especially you're only +1. And in a game where mashing DP = hitting 2 buttons, someone could easily DP out. That's why you don't autopilot your pressure. A big advantage of 5A being +1 would be setting up tick throws, but I dunno how fast throws are in this game.

So basically, you're both right. Congratulations.

[Errol]

I say there's not much point because other frame traps, like late cancelling gatlings between 5a/2a, 2a/2a, 2a/5a, both frame trap and are safer than using 4a, actually possible to do without eating a DP for free.

But whatever

[Amadeus46Art]

I say there's not much point because other frame traps, like late cancelling gatlings between 5a/2a, 2a/2a, 2a/5a, both frame trap and are safer than

Sorry, going to cut you off here. There's no such thing as a "safe" frame trap when dealing with reversals, especially in a game in which you don't have to do a real DP motion. If they're going to DP out of a frame trap, they're going to DP out, because if there's even a 1 frame gap and they reversal out, they're gonna beat out your frame trap.

If anything, you should learn 5A stagger, because knowing multiple frame traps means you have more ways to abuse your opponent's mashing. If you overuse one obvious one, anyone will learn to DP out or keep blocking. You still shouldn't autopilot your frame traps though, use them to discourage your opponent from pressing buttons so you can run mix-up. If you want them to not DP, you need to actually play against your opponent and learn when they'll DP. That's not something you can theoryfight. That's something you get from playing the game.

[Errol]

Hey Ama, thanks, but 5a recovers fast enough for you to block most DPs if you late chain into it from 2a. You leave them a 1 frame gap where they can mash dp, then your 5a is active, then it recovers, then you block the dp, and then you punish. That right there is a frame trap that is safe against many DPs, I don't think it'll work on some, but it will work on many.

[Amadeus46Art]

So you're saying you can leave that one frame gap perfectly, every time, against certain characters.

And if you can't, the gap has to be anywhere from one to three frames, since 4 frames is how large a gap there is between 5A > 4A, which you say isn't "safe". Assuming your opponent can DP on the first open frame every time.

Well, I'm not going to sit here and keep theoryfighting. That'd be stupid. But I am going to say that writing off 5A > 4A as "useless" is a very bad idea, as there are rarely things a character has that are completely useless.

EDIT: hold on, let me clarify my point:

If you're really that worried about someone DPing out of your jab pressure, then you shouldn't be doing jab pressure. If you're fighting anyone good, they'll 1) Know IF they can even DP out of your jab pressure safely without you being able to recover in time to block it, and 2) they'll just learn the timing, since you'll be too scared to vary it much, IB, and then smack you in the face with something safe for being stupid.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Amadeous

[Rhiya]

Errol, either there is a gap, or there isn't. If there is one, they can DP you; if there isn't one, they can't. If there is a gap, you can frametrap; if there isn't a gap, you can't frametrap. Frametrapping and baiting DPs are mutually exclusive.

[Errol]

That's not true... It depends on the properties of the moves. How quickly your move recovers, how quickly their DP becomes active.

Ok. I'm out.

[Amadeus46Art]

Moved a bunch of posts from the beginner thread to here, since this was a better place for the discussion; there's good info here but until I start seeing actual research done I want to keep the theoryfighting to a minimum.

[Rhiya]

That's not true... It depends on the properties of the moves. How quickly your move recovers, how quickly their DP becomes active.

Ok. I'm out.

Alright, you do 5A 5A as quickly as possible. I can DP between the two. This is what happens:

Your first 5A finishes--> You input your second 5A, it begins startup --> I input my DP --> your 5A reaches active --> I invul/superarmor/whatever through the active frames

In this situation, I will always win, unless the sum of the startup, active, AND recovery frames on your 5A is so short that the entire move completes before my DP becomes active. I don't have the data on Chie's jab recovery, so I can't say it's -impossible- for your Chie to complete her entire 5A before my DP would hit. I /can/ say that it's highly unlikely, though. This is what would happen if your 5A didn't recover before my DP became active:

Your first 5A finishes--> You input your second 5A, it begins startup --> I input my DP --> your 5A reaches active --> I invul/superarmor/whatever through the active frames --> my DP becomes active and hits you while you are in the process of performing your move, and I win the exchange

This is what I am hearing you say is possible, that is, that your 5A recovers before my DP becomes active:

Your first 5A finishes--> You input your second 5A, it begins startup --> I input my DP --> your 5A reaches active --> I invul/superarmor/whatever through the active frames --> your 5A recovers and you block --> my DP becomes active and gets blocked

Now, this requires my DP to be insanely slow to become active, or for your jab to have insanely fast recovery. I /suspect/ that jab recovery in this game is not fast enough for what you're proposing to actually happen, but I don't have the data to back that up right now.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Dusk Thanatos

[Errol]

2a>5a

[Rhiya]

2A>5A doesn't change that. 5A>5A, done as fast as possible, only has a 4f gap. 2A>5A, I don't know the exact data on; but if you late chain long enough for there to be a gap, the same thing applies. If I'm not in blockstun the entire time between the end of the first move (when you cancelled its recovery, in this case) and the active frames of the second, I can DP inbetween them, and you'll only be able to block my DP if the second move (5A) goes through startup, active, and recovery before my DP becomes active.

[Primiera]

2A>5A doesn't change that. 5A>5A, done as fast as possible, only has a 4f gap. 2A>5A, I don't know the exact data on; but if you late chain long enough for there to be a gap, the same thing applies. If I'm not in blockstun the entire time between the end of the first move (when you cancelled its recovery, in this case) and the active frames of the second, I can DP inbetween them, and you'll only be able to block my DP if the second move (5A) goes through startup, active, and recovery before my DP becomes active.

That's not entirely correct. If there's only a 1F gap or whatever between the jabs, that's the start-up number you'll use in calculating duration. Say you do 5A > 5A, and the opponent is able to mash right before the second 5A hits; it's essentially meaty, so you don't take the entire start-up. I will say that I'm pretty sure 5A's 1F + active frames + recovery is less than the 8 or 9 frames a non-counter DP has. Here are the DP start-ups:

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?14878-P4A-s-Training-Mode-%28Frame-Data-Related%29&p=1378679&viewfull=1#post1378679

Labrys- 25

Mitsuru- 9

Aigis- 8

Yikiko- 22

Yu- 9

Ahikiko - 8

Slabby- 14

[DJ_Blactricity]

Here's proof:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY2iFWMuPFg Work's against all the above dps except akihiko.

[Amadeus46Art]

Shouldn't it not work against Aigis as well? Her DP is listed as being 8 frames, same as Akihiko.

[Errol]

I don't know if it's hitboxes or something, but it's true. Aigis np, Akihiko no good.

Should also be obvious that this beats roll mash from every character., as do all gatlings which have only 1-2 frame gaps.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Errol

[Rhiya]

Okay, so what's going on there is that in late chaining, you're cancelling out of 2A's recovery, which effectively leaves you plus. Your opponent is coming out of blockstun almost immediately before your 5A becomes active (probably only a frame or so before) and then hitting DP on the first possible frame, which means that you're only worrying about the active frames+recovery.

Still, 5A has 3 active frames. So that means that, in order block a F9 active DP, the recovery is.. five or six frames? Jesus christ, you could actually do a DP-safe meaty with 5A

[Primiera]

Here's proof:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY2iFWMuPFg Work's against all the above dps except akihiko.

That's not actually proof (not saying the results are necessarily wrong though). What happens there is you're chaining 2A > 5A, but you're whiffing, and in fact there's a good chance you can only reversal B+D with Mitsuru well after Chie's 5A is out and probably recovering already. The proper proof would be a recording that hits Mitsuru if she blocks/doesn't block, and blocks a reversal B+D, preferably via a meaty 5A from a throw setup or via the gatling method discussed above.

[Errol]

uh no, he just did it, that video right there is a late chained 2a>5a. It is proof. This is getting tiring.

[ZomB]

No actually, he brings up a good point. There's a good chance it's true, but it looks like the 5a whiffs on Mitsuru there. There's a chance that if the 2a was closer or had dash momentum, Mitsuru would have been forced to block the 5a no matter what. This will affect the frame data.

But still this is pretty awesome. I'm going to do a little of my own research as well.

[Primiera]

No actually, he brings up a good point. There's a good chance it's true, but it looks like the 5a whiffs on Mitsuru there. There's a chance that if the 2a was closer or had dash momentum, Mitsuru would have been forced to block the 5a no matter what. This will affect the frame data.

But still this is pretty awesome. I'm going to do a little of my own research as well.

Exactly. The main problem is that according to his tests, Akihiko's 8F DP hits, so if it turns out there's no gap between 2A > 5A, it stands to reason that 9F DPs would also hit if a proper 1F gap were there. I'm trying to pause the video to find a point where it clearly shows 5A's active frame or the DP start-up is there first, but I can't find a frame where it doesn't look like both are active at the same time, and I can't find a frame before that where either is active.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Primiera

[DJ_Blactricity]

You can test this yourself. Just record 2A late chain 5A as chie, and test dp's against it.

[Errol]

it's quite easy to test. pop the game in.

[Rhiya]

DPs have invul before they're active, so DPs "go through" things before they actually hit

I'm not sure why that part of this is surprising to anyone

The surprising part is that Chie recovers so fast

[ZomB]

it's quite easy to test. pop the game in.

I'm not at home right now so I can't

[Primiera]

I tested it, not out of doubt of the results, only to confirm it in a test that ensured there wasn't a block-string. Same scenario, 2A > delayed 5A on a crouching Mitsuru, though I stood closer to her. On hit, it combo'd. On block, both hits connected obviously and there was a gap so as to allow a reversal, at which time B+D would activate and get blocked by Chie.

If there are 3 active frames as Dusk said, then the recovery of 5A should be 5 frames. 5A should have 5 start-up + 3 active + 5 recovery, which equals 12 total frames (first active frame is the last start-up frame).