[P4A] Shadow Labrys - Gameplay Discussion

[Urichinan]

So, let's talk shop. I'd love if someone could attack and/or agree with the things I'm saying. Maybe shine some light on my Slabbykins theories, or blow the ones I use out of the water.

Compared to regular Labrys, Slab doesn't have access to the same ridiculous damage output, but what she does have is Asterius. Her oki game is pretty solid, in that she has some reasonably ambiguous mixups that lead to solid damage and more knockdowns. Combos that end in sweep or in the axe give you the opportunity to call Asterius in and begin the shenanigans.

Those being:

From either the beam or the knuckle train, at midscreen, you have an obvious opportunity to jump at a grounded opponent. Since you lose a P card if Asty gets hit, the beam is more or less obviously safer, in addition to the longer duration of the beam in comparison to the single hit of the knuckle train. The tradeoff, of course, being that the knuckle train gives access to good damage. Other openers include going for unblockables with the buffalo hammer, and sectioning off their ability to jump with 2C. I believe the 8C is less of an oki option and more of a means of opening the opponent up from a neutral position. The Asty command grab is a good move that leads to good damage, not just from the followup, but from the move itself. I haven't come up with any good setups for it yet, but I'd like to hear on them.

With Asty running interference, there's the high/low game, and the crossup game. Slab's j.B crosses up without even needing an aerial turn input. Furthermore, 5As are jump-cancellable on hit or on block, so a meaty 5A allows for more jumps, more crossups and more time to mixup and score that knockdown.

The biggest problem to this, of course, is opponents not caring about your mixup. If either Slab or Asty gets hit, your mixup is over. FAs like Mitsuru's or Yu's are particularly good. Of course, if you block a FA, then you can get a full punish, so dash-up/walk-up -> block is also a valid mixup. It will probably cost you a P card, but it's an option to consider.

2B is a good tool defensively that leads to good damage. 2C controls jump-height and protects you from some attacks, to a certain extent. Defending with D is a thing you should be almost constantly doing. You probably shouldn't use Asty as bait. Not because it's cruel to him, but more because it's not really effective, as well as screwing it up leaves you open to attack and limits your offensive options.

The titan super is really good, but it's also really bad. It leads to good damage and can set up for your B Brutal Impact. You can input up to three commands, which can mean a big combo or three opportunities to mix your opponent up. Hit confirming is key for maximizing damage, and if Asty gets spooked, you're out fifty meter, so it's a good idea to do it when you're at a huge meter advantage, when you're shooting for the moon, and when you think they won't swing at Asty.

So, please folks of the board, rip me a new one, that I may be better at Slab.

Well, there's not really much to say. What you listed is just her basic stuff, and you didn't offer any new setups, so there is nothing to critique. It's just her basic stuff.

Laser oki is her strongest oki in terms of damage and mixup, and it's really good for cross-ups and corner carry. However it's really easy to escape with a parry or AoA because you can use the armor on them against the laser and get out for free. Obviously you can block the attack, but it's hard to predict.

Overall her oki is really safe, if you maintain a good distance from the opponent you can keep yourself from being punished and apply pressure after they block/whiff an attack.

Titan is kind of terrible for gaining momentum unless your opponent really respects it, or you can maintain a safe approach. But I still use it a good bit when I need to get the upper hand because 8C and 2C really help get the momentum going. Usually I do 8C > 2C > 5C so I can get good combos and approach options. Other times I do 2C > 8C > 5C for a close range option. The damage you can get from it is really good when you hit-confirm. And using those two patterns you can easily setup your normal BnB's and go into B Brutal Impact. Another thing to be cautious of is getting thrown during Titan, or even when attacking with Asterios in general, because he can be hit by throws, and he will lose a card every time. Luckily, it only works when Shadow Labrys herself gets thrown, otherwise it'll just whiff.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Urichinan

[Adelheid]

Asterius at least seems to have improved armor during Titanomachia. I'm pretty sure it becomes autoguard-except-against-supers (which is a lot better than autoguard-except-against-moves-with-less-than-500-power). Which is very useful if the opponent does not have meter, lets you run pretty much whatever you feel like as long as you're cautious.

[TheRealBobMan]

Oh really? I didn't realize that. That's really good to know, especially since EX Buffalo Hammah launches if the fists connect. If you're willing to spend 50%, you can do 214 ABCD for EX Buffalo + EX Guillotine, and then cancel the EX Guillotine into Guillotine(B) for the unblockable. I figure that since Guillotine hits at 1/2 screen anyway, if you do this from somewhat far away, it should be safe, and either way do quite a bit of damage (either about 2K from Guillotine hitting, or 2K+ from Buffalo + combo). If they do some superarmor move, you should be able to cancel the EX Guillotine into your own FA and beat it right? Would make for a great oki setup in the corner, considering it would be safe, but unblockable. Good luck backdashing out of that pressure too. : P

Also, I can confirm that the CH FA > Titan [8C] > 5AA > 8C hits > sj.B > Flame > IK setup works on: Labrys, Akihiko, Teddie, Kanji, Chie, and Yosuke. I'll test the rest tomorrow.

I can't decide who's more satisfying to do this to at the moment. Yosuke has the best animation while Slab is holding him before sending him to hell, but Teddie looks hilarious when Asterius is about to finish him.

[Urichinan]

The EX Guillotine+Buffalo Hammer is indeed really strong, and it does really good chip if you go for a mixup instead of an unblockable. You can also cancel into her R-Action from it you they try to use a reversal, mash, burst or guard cancel out of the setup.

[Zouf]

Doesn't burst killing your persona feel unfair to you? It does to me. Losing a card over an opponent burst is meh

[TheRealBobMan]

Doesn't burst killing your persona feel unfair to you? It does to me. Losing a card over an opponent burst is meh

You can bait the burst right? Since the burst doesn't do damage, it wont break Asterius unless it hits you, so you can predict it and punish. I'd like some frame data on bursts to see if there's a trick like watching the Burst meter in GG, since GG bursts have their active hitbox on 18 or so, and the meter empties on frame 1. You could One Moar Cancel whatever you're doing into block > punish.

[Urichinan]

Oh, yeah. If you actually see him D throw, you can absolutely react with DP to win. Him trying D throw is him predicting you already want to do something, which is a bit risky for him since guessing wrong means you get your okizeme, which is bad times for Kanji. Again, saying "If he guesses right he gets a huge advantage" doesn"t offer much, since you were already shocked so of course you're in a tough spot.

But all this should probably be in kanji matchup discussion

... But of course, if Kanji is cautious, he can jump in and poke with j.C trying to bait your aa and fatal you ;_;

You shouldn't be anti-airing them until they are right at you, or have pressed a button anyway. There's no reason you should ever be hitting 2B before they are in range, because it's got head invincibility on the 1st frame (I think) so you'll be safe no matter what they do from that point. I try not to anti-air until they reach the tip of where 2B would hit, because from there, unless they hit a button it'll hit them before they touch the ground, and if they touch a button, they get counter hit. Obviously they could airdash or double jump, but you'll still be safe from that as well.

[Adelheid]

You shouldn't be anti-airing them until they are right at you, or have pressed a button anyway. There's no reason you should ever be hitting 2B before they are in range, because it's got head invincibility on the 1st frame (I think) so you'll be safe no matter what they do from that point. I try not to anti-air until they reach the tip of where 2B would hit, because from there, unless they hit a button it'll hit them before they touch the ground, and if they touch a button, they get counter hit. Obviously they could airdash or double jump, but you'll still be safe from that as well.

I am completely certain that 2B's head invuln does not start frame 1. When I get back to my apartment tomorrow I'll do some tests to determine exactly what it is. IMO though you can't really wait for people to be in range of 2B to use it, 26f startup is way too slow for that on such a short AA, they'll land if they just do a jump-in.

[Urichinan]

I am completely certain that 2B's head invuln does not start frame 1. When I get back to my apartment tomorrow I'll do some tests to determine exactly what it is. IMO though you can't really wait for people to be in range of 2B to use it, 26f startup is way too slow for that on such a short AA, they'll land if they just do a jump-in.

I'm pretty sure it does, I tested it against jump-ins that were so deep they would land before she even did the attack. And I've anti-aired already active hitboxes, which would only work if it was invincible on the 1st frame. It is indeed slow, but from the tip of it, you've got plenty of time for it to come out. Like I said, at that range they're still airborne when it hits, making it no different than doing it earlier, they're just lower.

[Zouf]

You can bait the burst right? Since the burst doesn't do damage, it wont break Asterius unless it hits you, so you can predict it and punish. I'd like some frame data on bursts to see if there's a trick like watching the Burst meter in GG, since GG bursts have their active hitbox on 18 or so, and the meter empties on frame 1. You could One Moar Cancel whatever you're doing into block > punish.

Yeah well, baiting a burst is never an easy matter. Also, i noticed that tech throw also make you lose a card. This is kinda dumb :\

[Adelheid]

Yeah well, baiting a burst is never an easy matter. Also, i noticed that tech throw also make you lose a card. This is kinda dumb :\

Throws being teched counts as a hit against you and will also end the opponent's status effects. It's just the way the system works, it was the same way in blazblue, just that in this game being hit with your persona active breaks a card. You can break other people's cards by breaking their throws if they're doing something with their persona, too. If Asterius isn't doing anything, being bursted or having your throw teched won't break a card.

[Urichinan]

You guys have any ideas on how to improve it?

Guillotine Axe, Air Guillotine Axe, Sweep and 5B can't be done after 5A or 5AA, because they'll tech at the last Air Guillotine Axe, or some of the hits from 2C will whiff, making you lose damage.

I can't think of anything better that won't use extra meter.

[TheRealBobMan]

Can you try to catch them with a second 2B before the 2C hits instead of using 5AA?

Or... you can use Titanomachia in the air right? What if you do CH 2B > j.BB > Titan > airdash > follow up, as the starter? Might not work unless you're near the corner, but you might be able to catch the wallbounce off of j.BB if you cancel into super into airdash.

[Arifureta]

Any ideas on how to deal with shock? Specifically Kanji, but it's a problem for me in general.

Worse comes to worst, super armor the ground slam and hide in the active frames. Gimmicky as hell though.

[Zouf]

I can't play the game now but :

FC 2B > j.B > j.B > j.214B > SC 214214C (2C, 5C) (in the air, so your recovery is cancelled when landing) > 5AA > (2C) > j.B > j.214B > SC 214214B > (5C)

Should deal a bit more damage, and is a lot easier to confirm at least.

[Urichinan]

I can't play the game now but :

FC 2B > j.B > j.B > j.214B > SC 214214C (2C, 5C) (in the air, so your recovery is cancelled when landing) > 5AA > (2C) > j.B > j.214B > SC 214214B > (5C)

Should deal a bit more damage, and is a lot easier to confirm at least.

This is really good, it does 200 more damage than mine. And I think I can improve it to use the 8C route and maybe push it to 6K.

[Zouf]

If i remember right, the 8C route deals less damage than the 2C. Apparently 8C has a very bad prorate, and damages after it decrease a lot.

[Urichinan]

If i remember right, the 8C route deals less damage than the 2C. Apparently 8C has a very bad prorate, and damages after it decrease a lot.

Normally, yes, but during Titan combos it actually seems to increase the damage because you can squeeze some extra hits in before the fire goes off.

[TheRealBobMan]

Yesterday when I was messing around, I managed to get a comp set to crouch block to block deep jump-in j.B > dj.A, both standing. It's really hard and they tend to go back to crouching, but I was able to get it to happen more than once. Is this an accurate test for fuzzy guard? If the timing wasn't perfect, they'd go back to crouching and the dj.A would whiff.

Doesn't seem to work on Teddie - the bugger seems too short. I had it work on Mitsuru and I think Naoto though. It also works (possibly better!) if you do a jump turn and hit with the back part of the j.B. Maybe this could be used in crossup unblockables to make them harder to reversal super? They can always just Furious Action since it's 2 buttons and no directional input to mess up, but if it aims the wrong way, we'd still get to punish. Would make an in-your-face oki a little safer I think.

I mean, if you could time Buffalo Hammer in between the j.B and dj.A, you'd have a really scary mixup, even though on it's own, j.b > dj.A is a strong one since it's a 50/50 between that and j.B > 2A on landing. It's just that if you can cross them up while doing an unblockable with Buffalo and jump-in, it should be safer for us because now it's a 50/50 that they do their reversal input facing the right way, assuming most FAs whiff. It should also be a bit safer than Guillotine if they do the AB dash to escape. That command dash is completely invincible except for throws right?

[Adelheid]

Recall that moves are often slightly modified versions of those moves during Titanomachia. It's possible Titanomachia 8C just has better proration.

Edit: Also recall I said I'd gather frame data?

5a

Startup: 7

Active: 3+x

Recovery: 19-x

SD: -9

5aa

Startup: 10

Active: 2+x

Recovery: 16-x

SD: -3

5aaa

Startup: 22

Active: 3+x

Recovery: 24-x

SD: -8

2a

Startup: 7

Active: 2+x

Recovery: 14-x

SD: -1

5b

Startup: 15

Active: 4+x

Recovery: 17-x

SD: -6

2b

Startup: 25

Active: 5+x

Recovery: 19-x

SD: -4

5AB

Already noted

2AB

Startup: 15

Active: 3+x

Recovery: 20-x

SD: -6

j.A

Startup: 9

Blockstun: 14

j.B

Startup: 17

Blockstun: 14

214A

Startup: 11

Active: 2 (12) 6+x

Recovery: 26-x

SD: -3

214B

Startup: 18

Active: 2 (12) 6+x

Recovery: 26-x

SD: 0

j.214A

Startup: 12

Active: 2 (4) until landing, 6+x

Recovery: 39-x

SD: -13

j.214B

Startup: 17

Active: 3 (6) until landing, 6+x

Recovery: 34-x

SD: -8

I'm not at my setup now, and although I tried to be very thorough in the recordings I took with me to review, I don't really feel comfortable talking about Asterius or super frame data, plus I forgot the EX specials. But hey

Some of this could be wrong, exact number of active frames especially hence the xs. I tried to be as accurate as I could, but maybe I missed something or was not quite correct about something or another.

Edit: I'll collect frame data for the rest of her moves over tomorrow and the day after.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Adelheid

[MasterMind]

I realized today that the only thing keeping me from playing Shadow Labrys is the fact that you can't assign one input to multiple buttons. As a pad player, this means I can't have D be the default button on the controller as well as a shoulder button. Since the A+B+C macro defaults to A+C when you're not in active or recovery frames, you essentially have an open button on pad.

Since I play other characters as well (mostly Akihiko), changing the button layout really screws up muscle memory. Is there any real, logical reason you can't assign multiple buttons to do the same thing?

[Urichinan]

I realized today that the only thing keeping me from playing Shadow Labrys is the fact that you can't assign one input to multiple buttons. As a pad player, this means I can't have D be the default button on the controller as well as a shoulder button. Since the A+B+C macro defaults to A+C when you're not in active or recovery frames, you essentially have an open button on pad.

Since I play other characters as well (mostly Akihiko), changing the button layout really screws up muscle memory. Is there any real, logical reason you can't assign multiple buttons to do the same thing?

You can just change the button layout at the character select screen. Since muscle memory wouldn't affect that either way (You'd still be using a shoulder when playing Shadow Labrys and a face button when playing Akihiko), you should just do that.

I can't think of any logical reason behind it, honestly.

You could also go crab claw style, which is really easy and works wonders for a game like Persona with a lot of macros.

[MasterMind]

Changing the layout at the character select screen is fine for offline, but I don't think you can do that online.

Honestly I haven't considered claw style. I really like Shadow Labrys, so I may just give it a shot.

[Urichinan]

Changing the layout at the character select screen is fine for offline, but I don't think you can do that online.

Honestly I haven't considered claw style. I really like Shadow Labrys, so I may just give it a shot.

I'm pretty sure you can, the other day my friend said he forgot to fix his buttons and to reinvite him, but then said never mind, so I assumed you could change them online. You could in BB, so I'd be surprized if you couldn't on P4U.

[Arifureta]

You can change the button layout at the character select. At least, that's how it is on ranked. Not sure about player matches.