Commentary work.

[PozerWolf]

So, the other day I was watching the stream of this game from players some where in Cali. I haven't touched the game yet, but was interested in seeing how the game worked (aside from A-cho videos, I haven't seen much of the game at all).

Now, the biggest problem I notice when watching the game is unfriendly terminology. Before I begin to state the faults of what I'm implying here, let me explain something. Normally when watching StarCraft 2 streams, the commentators usually treat the audiences as if they've never played StarCraft 2 before. Sometimes while watching a stream, a player would use a race ability that existed in part 1, and I was question, "Why the hell did he do that?" and the commentators would answer like if they heard you. And that's just one example of great commentary!

Here's the problem I ran into when watching the stream from Cali; "OMG HE'S USED HIS R-ACTION!!!"

People not familiar with this game and are trying to get into it will ask, "WTF is an R-Action?!" and never was it explained on the stream. Of course, doing research would solve the problem, however when you're bombarded with many other terminology that only exists in Persona 4 Arena, the viewer is turned off and there's a chance they will leaves the stream. You do not want that happening.

Okay, well that's the players fault for not doing research to begin with, right? I mean, if the person is so interested in the game, he would've at least considered doing some research before hand, and then viewing the stream.

WRONG!! And if you think that, you're a fuckin' retard (I just mentioned 80% of dustloop members here, but let's hope they get this message across regardless how much people care for that place).

Using the StarCraft 2 commentary work as an example (once again), remember how I mention that they treat players as if they never played part 2 (but hint they may hint that those viewers played part 1). Well, that example was used for a tournament I witness just a few months ago on a game that's already over a year old. So if they're still treating players like as if they haven't played part 2 yet, then why stop there? You want to make the commentary as viewer friendly as possible (and of course, adding jokes. No one minds jokes).

But StarCraft isn't a fighting game, and the way commentary works in that--- No, STFU if you are thinking this. Get that shit out of your head, right now!

Persona 4 Arena is a fighting game, so figuring out other terminology that everyone is familiar with would be best to use in order to describe the situation happening in the game. And because of this, it's easy to relate the situation with another move to help describe to the viewers what's going on. An example; calling R-Action "Reversals" or possibly "DP" (aka Dragon Punch. Maybe calling it 'Uppercut' in case not many people are familiar with the term DP) would help the viewer understand what is being implied.

But every character has specific R-Actions and they all do different things! - And if you continue to think like this, it's becomes a problem. Your objective is to help the viewer understand what's going on in the match by describe what's happening in the fight in the best possible way. You need to relate with the viewers in order to gain some understanding on what's happening. R-Actions, for the most part, have a specific goal for the character and that's to GTFO of the situation they are in. And for that matter, most R-Actions in the game are Dragon Punches (Shoryuken, if you will). And by the way, this is just one example.

Whether or not you guys would do this, I doubt it. Would this change be for the best? Yes, it would.

Do you guys care? Of course not.

Why am I typing this then. Well, I would like to be proven wrong that most of the anime fighting game scene isn't full of complete idiots and would take in consideration of what I posted. To acknowledge this and give proper feedback on the situation would be great as what other players think about this.

But then again, who knows.......

EDIT: Smiley Face

Edited August 4, 2012 by PozerWolf

[Kuuhaku]

Yeah. That is a good point. Since the game is new, it's probably important to explain what's going on to people who might not be familiar with it. Stuff like status effects will also likely need a lot of explaining since it's kind of hard to tell at a glance what they do. Though, from what I saw of the FKO stream, it seemed like most of the commentators also had no idea what was going on.

Might it be easier to call SB moves EX moves? Just a thought since it seems like more people are familiar with the term EX.

[Xie]

I don't mind establishing a standard for good commentary, because I know the majority of us don't care about being professional or helpful or even if we did, we don't know how to do it, so I do think coming up with paradigms for speaking about game mechanics would be really helpful.

I don't think we need to specifically use terminology that people may or may not know, and instead we should just combine our unique terminology with helpful descriptors instead. In fact, to be honest, let's be real, the majority of stream monsters don't even understand basic fighting game terminology to begin with, so it's a mistake to normalize our terminology to an arbitrary level, imo.

IE - Someone does reversal Narukami R-Action on wakeup and it lands :

Commentator A - "<Player Name> counterattacks with his invincible R-Action attack!"

Commentator B - <Comments on current gameplay situation with reference to Narukami landing his R-Action

This way, we can get people to acclimate to our vocabulary while still keeping the terminology correct for actual players.

Anyways, that said, this post is a complete train wreck lol. It would be nice if it wasn't a borderline rant so we could actually talk about it.

[kazukifafner]

I really agree with this, barring the abrasiveness `3`

Commentary is supposed to describe what's going on to the listener. Hence the word.

Just saying "he used an R-Action" is terrible commentary regardless of whether or not the person watching understands it. That doesn't help anyone. It just says "what" the player did, not "why" they did it. Terminology is all well and good, but it can't be the entire commentary. I know MLG commentary gets a lot of criticism from the FGC for not being "hype" enough; but honestly, they have better commentary than most other events. I'd never even looked at League of Legends before I saw one of MLG's LoL tournaments, and I was able to grasp what was going on after just a couple matches, able to infer what the terminology meant through what they were saying about it.

I think FG commentary needs more of that.

[Chris Chaos]

What PoserWolf is asking of those as commentators isn't too hard to deal with but to be fair, the game just came out and most people commentating on it do not have the proper knowledge of the game yet. It won't take that long for commentators for P4U to obtain the proper knowledge of the game and it's mechanics over time, once that's done they should be able to figure out ways to discuss what's going on in the match to those that may not be familiar with the game.

Example:

R-Action - Could be as Poserwolf stated as an "Uppercut" or for some characters "A Counter Move" or a proper explanation of what a specific character's R-Action is and what it does.

The only think you have to watch out for is to make sure you're not "Dumb-ing it Down" too much to where the viewers feel insulted. Treating viewers on stream as if they're idiots will also push them away so explaining the obvious aspects would be unnecessary.

Example:

Status Effects - These are pretty self-explanatory; poison, paralysis, freeze and charm should be understood across the board no matter what background the viewer comes from. Commentators shouldn't have to get too into detail on explaining what status effects does since their 'effects' are obvious.

For the moment, I would give commentators for P4U a break since the game has yet to be released officially in the US, so expect commentary to be less than top notch for some time, unlike the effective commentary of those who commentate on Starcraft 2 which has been out for over 2 years.

[PozerWolf]

Anyways, that said, this post is a complete train wreck lol. It would be nice if it wasn't a borderline rant so we could actually talk about it.

Hey, fuck you! I love trains. Don't get my mom involved in this!!

But you have to understand, it had to be establish more of a "rant" than anything else to even get proper feed back. This intimidates those who don't know what they're talking about to post (I have no nice way of putting this. Sorry if I'm an asshole... bitch) and actually gives me constructive info for those who disagree with me.

As for this post, good feed back Xie. I actually didn't look at it that way... I NOW KNOW!!!

Also, <3 kazukifafner and Shinsyn.

EDIT: Remember, this is just feed back in trying to make this better, as this has been a problem for quiet some time with other streams and not just the one I witness (so no, I'm not pointing fingers. And if you wanna get personal, yes Texas has this problem too. Good thing no one watches Texas stream... BURN!! Oh wait...). My methods may not be correct, as I feel like there is a better way going about this, but that's why I made this topic. And I do agree that trying to dumb down everything for the viewer can be harmful as well.

Edited August 4, 2012 by PozerWolf

[Jyosua]

I don't mind establishing a standard for good commentary, because I know the majority of us don't care about being professional or helpful or even if we did, we don't know how to do it, so I do think coming up with paradigms for speaking about game mechanics would be really helpful.

I don't think we need to specifically use terminology that people may or may not know, and instead we should just combine our unique terminology with helpful descriptors instead. In fact, to be honest, let's be real, the majority of stream monsters don't even understand basic fighting game terminology to begin with, so it's a mistake to normalize our terminology to an arbitrary level, imo.

IE - Someone does reversal Narukami R-Action on wakeup and it lands :

Commentator A - "<Player Name> counterattacks with his invincible R-Action attack!"

Commentator B - <Comments on current gameplay situation with reference to Narukami landing his R-Action

This way, we can get people to acclimate to our vocabulary while still keeping the terminology correct for actual players.

Anyways, that said, this post is a complete train wreck lol. It would be nice if it wasn't a borderline rant so we could actually talk about it.

Yeah, I agree with this. That way, people unfamiliar with FGs can more easily find out more about the type of move or technique, and as Xie said we can get them used to P4A specific terms.

[Dogysamich]

I just had this shoved in my face.

The OP is something that's come up often, and it's good when a new game is coming out (especially with new/terms most people haven't heard for whatever reason), but after a while the concept becomes hit or miss.

It really depends on what level your commentating at, and I mean the quality of the tournament. Sure, trying to make everything new user friendly sounds nice, but it actually turns out horrible when you're not commentating a high level event (read: a REAL major, not something that just got codeworded major in the past 2 years or higher). When you're commentating a local event such as a biweekly, there really it eventually gets counterproductive to do this kind of this because in those situations you'd be catering towards a minority of your viewership.

When you look at SC2 for example (which alot of people cite SC2 commentary, which is why I'm going at this point), it's always lost in translation that people are looking at big, mainstream, high level productions. That's pretty much all that gets aired or studied for anything. (At the same time, who's really heard of a local SC2 with the same concept as, say, Big 2?) The SC2 commentaries people look at are a whole string of "NECs" and "Final Rounds" and the likes.

That's not to say that the commentary doesn't need to improve. The FGC as a whole has pretty horrible commentary, myself included. But 90% of us spend most of our time in commentary situations far different that what we're compared to.

And for the sake of credibility, I'm not saying this as a half-cocked random who's only commentated small tourneys in the middle of nowhere (I'm not going to be offended if everybody in here follows this post with a "who the fuck are you?" I've done from as low down as an 8-man house Melty tourney all the way up to being the 1st main commentator in this evo's 2012 circuit. I can safely say there's a huge difference between the two.

__

tl;dr - I agree with the OP, but i think everybody's throwing a lot of concern without really considering all of the factors of this situation.

[dioxideUniversa]

But you have to understand, it had to be establish more of a "rant" than anything else to even get proper feed back. This intimidates those who don't know what they're talking about to post (I have no nice way of putting this. Sorry if I'm an asshole... bitch) and actually gives me constructive info for those who disagree with me.

the only reason people are replying to your post constructively at all is because you just happen to be whining about a topic that is legitimate and relevant, but that doesn't mean that it's not a huge pain in the ass to consider giving it a full read given your history with these things. since we're a fan of fake statistics, the noise to signal ratio for your comments are something like 80 to 20

i'm pretty sure shitting on fledgling streams with little experience isn't helping or encouraging anyone. people are aware of their flaws. pretty much all I am getting out of your posts is trying to determine exactly how stupid you think everyone who isn't you is, which isn't an effective way to promote constructive discussion and there is no way to bullshit around that.

also yes, it is important for people to do quality commentary, but the context of the size of the stream, its primary audience, the fact that the game isn't even out yet, etc. are all factors that matter and you are basically too insufferable to make it worth my time and effort to explain it more at length, especially given that they strike me as pretty basic concepts in spite of your blatant disregard for them.

Edited August 4, 2012 by dioxideUniversa

[PozerWolf]

*snip*

Booooooo at your post! Booooo I say. Worse post so far, but no need to stop posting. If you feel or agree or disagree, state what's up. Of course, you're saying it's an "obvious issue", but if that's the case why hasn't anything been done about it? Answer: people are NOT aware of their flaws. One example of bad commentary was addressed in my original post, but it was a strong enough example to give an idea of what the issue is.

FYI: I'm not saying I'm "smarter" than anyone else, as even I present myself as a retard. And If I was "so smart", why would I be asking people from a site that I presented, with such negative feed back, to prove me otherwise? I want my methods to be question because I know I'm also in the wrong.

Edited August 4, 2012 by PozerWolf

[dioxideUniversa]

boo hoo my post is the worst just because i bothered to actually explain why the OP got several immediate replies that were basically irrelevant non-information

great example of reflexive listening: i neither used the word "obvious" nor was i attempting to infer that it is obvious. also citing an an especially bad example of non-informative commentary does not make it an accurate average representation of what high-end commentary is like as a whole, much less, again, smaller streams with more niche audiences that do not have a lot of imperative need for refined and comprehensively informative commentary.

while I am not going to assert that there aren't commentators out there who simply do not care about this topic in particular vs. having a good time and making it hype and that they should not be on the mic if we want to create informative commentary, that does not mean that every single commentator is not trying to be informative. you also seem to trivialize the difficulty of striking a complex balance between providing information and having a stream be hyped, which as others have suggested and I at least partially agree, is important and what makes fighting game streams enjoyable; i know several people who have enjoyed fighting game clips for this reason who do not actually care about fighting games in the slightest.

as far as asserting that people are indeed unaware of their flaws, i personally have no experience with how stuff in austin/houston goes down, i know we are basically just starting off with streams on the north side of the state and the people who are running it are conscious of the quality of their work. you seem far too willing to confuse "does not care" with "does not understand." i would wholly agree that there is a very high margin of people who simply do not care, but not so with those who do not understand or cannot see it, which as you phrase things, yes, makes it sound like you think are, in your words, "fucking retarded"--which is offensive and you know it.

if you're not trying to say that you're better than everyone else then you should quit acting like it, because as I said, telling off basically the entire forums and shit talking everyone (it being FGC shit talk is not an excuse for logical discourse and human respect) looks arrogant as hell. i'll stand by my point that you are not promoting constructive discussion because the simple fact is coming to these topics typically tends to be about arguing about your needlessly caustic behavior and skewed opinions (or more realistically, not posting at all because it isn't worth it) and not discussing the actual topic.

that said, this is unpleasant

Edited August 4, 2012 by dioxideUniversa

[PozerWolf]

It's way to easy to break down why you're wrong, so rather than going into it because I feel like you're a waste of time, I'll just point out simple things.

* are all factors that matter and you are basically too insufferable to make it worth my time and effort to explain it more at length

You = Everyone trying to get into the game. FYI it's very possible. But how is the biggest question and the best way going about it. Xie pointed out something very useful.

* you also seem to trivialize the difficulty of striking a complex balance between providing information and having a stream be hyped, which as others have suggested and I at least partially agree, is important and what makes fighting game streams enjoyable

And the commentary stated in the stream I witness was not enjoyable due to the confusing of what was happening to the match.

* i know several people who have enjoyed fighting game clips for this reason who do not actually care about fighting games in the slightest.

Ignorance is bliss.

* you seem far too willing to confuse "does not care" with "does not understand.

What.

* if you're not trying to say that you're better than everyone else then you should quit acting like it, because as I said, telling off basically the entire forums and shit talking everyone (it being FGC shit talk is not an excuse for logical discourse and human respect) looks arrogant as hell.

Oh well, getting your feelings hurt. Your life must be a total mess right now after reading my posts.

Your post still suck. But if you feel like you should continue, no one is stopping ya'. Anything contributes whether or not I agree.

Edited August 5, 2012 by PozerWolf

[Veteru]

Pozerwolf, the observation you made in your post is correct. Often commentary for fighting game streams are less informative than they could be, and that mistake (Assumption that the viewers will already be familiar with the terminology and situations) is frequently made. That being said... this is a point that has been brought up in the past, often in a more constructive manner. People are aware of the problem, it's just not as easy to change as you might think. As already mentioned, it can be difficult to find the proper balance between informative and entertaining commentary.

My personal advice, if you'd like to be involved in the change, is to contact stream commentators directly and to give them feedback about their commentary. I often contact a few of the more popular commentators in our community and give them my feedback about their commentary... though I'm not confident all of them take it seriously (as actual feedback). Preferably in a less hostile/insulting manner.

[Veteru]

the only reason people are replying to your post constructively at all is because you just happen to be whining about a topic that is legitimate and relevant, but that doesn't mean that it's not a huge pain in the ass to consider giving it a full read given your history with these things. since we're a fan of fake statistics, the noise to signal ratio for your comments are something like 80 to 20

Pozerwolf is a known, and long term member of the Dustloop community. Although he has a penchant for raising awareness about real issues in a slightly less constructive way, I think it's because we're familiar with this that a lot of us replied in a serious manner.

i'm pretty sure shitting on fledgling streams with little experience isn't helping or encouraging anyone. people are aware of their flaws. pretty much all I am getting out of your posts is trying to determine exactly how stupid you think everyone who isn't you is, which isn't an effective way to promote constructive discussion and there is no way to bullshit around that.

also yes, it is important for people to do quality commentary, but the context of the size of the stream, its primary audience, the fact that the game isn't even out yet, etc. are all factors that matter and you are basically too insufferable to make it worth my time and effort to explain it more at length, especially given that they strike me as pretty basic concepts in spite of your blatant disregard for them.

Although the examples used are related to Persona 4, I think the real purpose is to raise awareness of an ongoing problem with streaming commentary. Please don't interpret it as maliciously targetting the P4U streamers.

Even after attending events in person, I often go back and watch the stream so I can review the commentary. I'd like to encourage everyone to give feedback to the stream commentators and event organizers after watching the events.

[kazukifafner]

I think one thing they could try to start with is having one guy who's more informative and another who's more hype.

Similar to how Nuki and Kuroda handle commentary when the two are covering SFIII matches. Of course, you need good people to pull it off, but that's always the case for commentary.

[Rhiya]

I think there's a really hard line to draw, here.

On one hand, when you get to the big events, you're going to draw the most viewers, so you want to be highly accessible.

On the other hand, it's often only at the big events that we get to see high-level play consistently get stream time -- and I know that I, personally, /want/ to hear the technical breakdown of what's going on when I'm watching high-level play. It's so rare to see it streamed live with English commentary that, when I actually can see it, I want to be able to make the most of it. Beginner-level commentary on finals matches feels like a waste of a good learning experience.

[Moy_X7]

Here's the problem I ran into when watching the stream from Cali; "OMG HE'S USED HIS R-ACTION!!!"

People not familiar with this game and are trying to get into it will ask, "WTF is an R-Action?!" and never was it explained on the stream. Of course, doing research would solve the problem, however when you're bombarded with many other terminology that only exists in Persona 4 Arena, the viewer is turned off and there's a chance they will leaves the stream. You do not want that happening.

Although I would agree with you that they should use more common terms like a "reversal" to describe things like the "R-Action", I don't really agree with the commentators having to explain every single little thing that happens. Let's take a look at this fictional scenario...

Commentator(s) - "Yukiko has been inflicted with the Berserk status ailment. YOU BETTER MASH THAT REVERSAL YUKIKO LOL. Also, for those who don't know, the Berserk status ailment disables the victim's ability to block but boosts their damage output by 20%.

*Random Ignorant Stream Monster joins the stream*

Commentator(s) - "Man, that Yukiko needs to start baiting Teddie's Decoy reversal. She is now under the Berserk status effect again."

Random Ignorant Stream Monster - WTF does the Berserk status do?

*People in the chat explain what the effect does as the commentator already explained it before the stream monster came in"

I don't think that having the commentators explain every little basic thing, every single time, is as constructive as you make it out to be. For one, it would be a ridiculous thing to do. Two, it would make the stream hella fucking boring. That's where the members of the chat come in. Some will be assholes about it and some will be nice about it but either way, they'll explain to the noob what has already been explained. Well, that's assuming that the chatroom isn't flooded by stupid shit.

It really depends on the stream. If it's a stream featuring an incredible popular game, with a huge audience, then you should at least know the terminology used in said game as well as the basics because the chat will be flooded with stupid ass comments and the commentators will most likely not explain every single basic thing that goes on. If you try asking a question in a flooded chat-room, there's a 90% chance that the people there will ignore you because they're too focused on the match or because your comment has been swept away by the flood of comments. If they do happen to explain a scenario, you log in, the scenario happens again and it has already been explained, then you're fucked.

If it's a more niche game with a smaller audience which is being streamed, then you can get away with being ignorant because the chat room will not be as flooded and your questions will most likely be answered.

To be frank, if people leave a stream because they don't know what something means or how something works and boo-hoo they weren't there to hear the explanation then oh fucking well. "Good riddance" I might add. If you're curious enough, ask in the chat, don't just leave. If you just leave, then it really doesn't seem like you were that interested in the game to begin with.