[CP] Tsubaki Changes and Discussion

[Zouf]

>Kuresu does Blade super while cornered by Ragna

>Ragna activates Carnage scissors on the super flash

>Carnage Scissors whiffs and Ragna gets hit and dies.

Thoughts? Blade super only vulnerable near the end of it's start-up frames maybe? :V

Either that or Carnage is a projectile

[pktazn]

I'm pretty sure it isn't going by past iterations and that would probably be one of the weirdest changes they would do... It more than likely whiffed or there's something else going on. Sadly, it's another thing we'd have to wait for Arcsys to tell us with frame data.

Quicker charge cancel in OD should open up the gate for some new combos and some very interesting frame traps/pressure strings.

Given our OD gives us basically everything good that Tsu has to offer, it's going to be quite the challenge to balancing out when we should be using it defensively and when we should save it for an offensive chance to turn the tides.

I see myself using it more offensively and playing like I have no bursts but that too will vary greatly depending on match up situations.

I agree especially since our opponent isn’t able to burst during OD. I know I’ve seen a couple of players (using various characters) use it like that, when they get a good hit confirm into a possible round or game winning combo. We’d have to be careful with how long it’s going to last as well though when we activate it.

[Airk]

Where can I find the Charge cancel numbers in Extend? Thanks.

Daedron was spot on with the charge cancel numbers - that's a comprehensive explanation and covers all the bases in Extend.

CP looks a lot more complicated - first of all, we don't know what the minimum charge duration is. It's been 18 frames since CS1, but a LOT of stuff has been changing, so there's no guarantee that that's what it is in CP, and in any event, it'll be different for air normals since air charge is 14 frames minimum in Extend. x.x

Overdrive improving charge cancel recovery would be pretty sweet - even just two frames would make a LOT of stuff even on block and more than that would be crazy.

Not sure how applicable it is in combos though beyond making it easy to confirm a counter-hit charge cancel or something. Let me run some numbers.

Edit: Yeah, I'm not really seeing any additional combo potential from this - at least, not with ground normals. air stuff is a brave new world and I have no idea how it works, so...

Edited December 5, 2012 by Airk

[FatalCounter]

Thx for your answers. I don't know where I read it or maybe I am wrong, is 6C charge cancellable now? Sometimes I use 6C > jump cancel to close the gap when people use the barrier during my blockstring. If this is charge cancellable, it gonna be great.

I don't know why they made jC or jCC recovery so long after the jD? That limits a bit her options after she charges in the air. As a Relius player I use jD a lot for calling or releasing Ignis and continuing my pressure.

Edited December 5, 2012 by FatalCounter

[Airk]

Thx for your answers. I don't know where I read it or maybe I am wrong, is 6C charge cancellable now? Sometimes I use 6C > jump cancel to close the gap when people use the barrier during my blockstring. If this is charge cancellable, it gonna be great.

I don't know why they made jC or jCC recovery so long after the jD? That limits a bit her options after she charges in the air. As a Relius player I use jD a lot for calling or releasing Ignis and continuing my pressure.

I haven't heard anything about 6C being charge cancellable - odds are if it were, we'd have seen it by now, but who knows, maybe no one thought to try. (Unlikely)

And it's not that j.C and j.CC have recovery after j.D - it's that they don't CANCEL the recovery from j.D - j.D has 9 frames of landing recovery, and you get those whether you do j.C or not. That said, I don't think they are ADDITIVE, so if you do a move that has landing recovery after j.D you only get the landing recovery from the subsequent move. (Which means that if you're good at hitconfirming j.C into j.214D...)

[Daedron]

So at least that means we can do j.C - j.D - j.CC - land and then continue pressure without the j.CC getting landing recovery? cause that would at least be sorta helpful :V

[Errol]

nah... there would definitely be landing recovery on that.

I like how JB/JBB float less. JB/JBB/JC/jc/JC seems to be a good standard air combo. I whiff j214c too much in EX>

[Kiba]

So at least that means we can do j.C - j.D - j.CC - land and then continue pressure without the j.CC getting landing recovery? cause that would at least be sorta helpful :V

You can't even follow up from aerials after a charge cancel in EX. You'd have to RC.

[C0R]

So at least that means we can do j.C - j.D - j.CC - land and then continue pressure without the j.CC getting landing recovery? cause that would at least be sorta helpful :V

Landing recovery is a property that cannot be overridden or lost. Like say you do... Mu j.c. That's 4f landing recovery. Even if you stein /special/rapid/jump/super cancel it, you're still going to have landing recovery.

[Daedron]

Boo, oh well.

[BatousaiJ]

6C > j.CC > j.D > IAD j.CC > j.214D should give you enough time even after landing recovery to combo.

Or anything ending with j.214D honestly. You can be chippy and land a j.A > j.214D after j.D cancel and there should be plenty of time to pick them off for a combo. It might not be 6C but I would wager 2B > 2C would work pretty easily.

j.D cancel to continue air pressure strings is something I can see myself doing a lot, kind of like the way platinum uses her little air thing.

[Airk]

Or anything ending with j.214D honestly. You can be chippy and land a j.A > j.214D after j.D cancel and there should be plenty of time to pick them off for a combo. It might not be 6C but I would wager 2B > 2C would work pretty easily.

Yeah, this is basically what I was trying to say, though apparently not very clearly.

j.D cancel to continue air pressure strings is something I can see myself doing a lot, kind of like the way platinum uses her little air thing.

Except Swallow Moon doesn't give you 9 frames of landing recovery. =/ It really looks like this will only really be valid with charge for j.214D (Does it still do a hilarious slide if they're not in the corner, or can we pick up chargeless midscreen?)

[BatousaiJ]

Hence the "kind of". It's not as good but it certainly adds yet another dimension to our pressure game.

Given we can already do j.CC delay, adding this to the repertoire makes JC block strings more attractive.

[Errol]

It's not as good as swallow moon. BUt that reminds me. They must have removed the minimum height on JD.

But we still haven't seen any 5b> JD>JB attempts at breaking people down. Why?

J214D still slides.

[Surf]

Im still undecided on the D cancels for air normals. j.C from a j.D air cancel comes out a bit too slow and wont come out at all all the way if your too close to the ground. And even on CH its hard to confirm from j.B. It's a nice addition to pressure, but it's so-so. Waiting for more tech to be discovered for it

[Airk]

Im still undecided on the D cancels for air normals. j.C from a j.D air cancel comes out a bit too slow and wont come out at all all the way if your too close to the ground. And even on CH its hard to confirm from j.B. It's a nice addition to pressure, but it's so-so. Waiting for more tech to be discovered for it

Well, like I've sortof been saying/musing, it seems like it would be pretty good in the corner if you can confirm into j.214D from whatever. That's big damage, or used to be.

You know what I don't see many Tsubaki players doing, and what I often fail to remember to do myself? j.C > 2B. People are used to blocking low, but we never encourage it. j.CC is a lot better if they're concerned you're going to land and low them.

Edit: Also, regarding Blade Super, it seems like it really does have FULL invulnerability once the swords become active (You can tell because Tsubaki leaves her "point the sword at you to summon swords" pose and does what kinda looks like a little backdash.); She DEFINITELY has invulnerability during that: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzc9TL9UJFM#t=3m30s

Edited December 6, 2012 by Airk

[pktazn]

That looks like invulnerability to me, thanks for the time-stamp Airk. Can anyone remember when she was being hit out of it in other videos though? Was it before she had the blades out and started to do her little back dash? If so then it corroborates with what was said earlier (awhile back in passing lol) that she doesn't have any before the blades are fully out. I'll add that she definitely has invul during the backdash part of the super.

It's not as good as swallow moon. BUt that reminds me. They must have removed the minimum height on JD.

But we still haven't seen any 5b> JD>JB attempts at breaking people down. Why?

Maybe it's not as reliable? I know jC hits more downward than jB so that could be a reason why.

Edited December 6, 2012 by pktazn

[Errol]

You know what I don't see many Tsubaki players doing, and what I often fail to remember to do myself? j.C > 2B. People are used to blocking low, but we never encourage it. j.CC is a lot better if they're concerned you're going to land and low them.

Forget? well, sort of. 2b is so ass, that if you try to do it after a jump it's the easiest thing ever to disrespect. most of the time I just want to safely get into pressure on the ground. and that can be kinda ambiguous with a 6 frame normal let alone a 13 frame normal. You're better off with a throw than with 2b most of the time IMO.

Blades super. I think I've never seen it hit out of after super flash, and have seen it hit out of before super flash plenty. So, It's not a reversal super. there's probably like 10-15 frames before super flash where you can be hit? But it's good, we don't have to worry about people reacting to punish it, they have to guess at neutral.

low altitude jump charge cancels.. I think JC is too slow, it can be mashed out. JB just seems like a better choice to me.

There were some of these in the most recent videos. but what I Haven't seen any of is low altitude jump charges, like platinum tk swallow moon.. You can see from the 6C>JC>JD>5C combos that the JD minimum height restriction is gone, so why not? Maybe it's as suggested, the fact that you can't combo without charge, the fact that it's hard to confirm off JB, etc.

[BatousaiJ]

Blade DD seems to have vulnerability right after super flash for a few frames(well before she starts her backdash animation).

Short enough to have dodged a carnage scissor at that range activated nearly at the same time but enough to get Ragna 5B'ed when you just pull it out of your ass without having a bit of space to work with.

Getting hit removes all the Blades making it a wasted DD so it makes sense for them to try to hit us out of it but at the same time the window of opportunity to do so is actually kind of small which is why we see people getting hit by it all the time.

I like how people were down on this new DD when they first saw it but seeing how Kuresu uses it, you can easily see how valuable it can be.

Edited December 6, 2012 by BatousaiJ

[Airk]

Can anyone remember when she was being hit out of it in other videos though?

Here's an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZfh9egwz4I#t=10m23

It's well after the super flash and background change - the crest has even had time to fade out - but Tsubaki is still in Sword Summoning Pose when she gets hit.

Getting hit removes all the Blades making it a wasted DD so it makes sense for them to try to hit us out of it but at the same time the window of opportunity to do so is actually kind of small which is why we see people getting hit by it all the time.

What confuses ME is the number of times I've seen people get hit by it for NO good reason. Like "Haha, I shall super jump barrier to avoid your mixup...and then get hit anyway."

[Errol]

hmm. too bad.

[TheGreatReptar]

What confuses ME is the number of times I've seen people get hit by it for NO good reason. Like "Haha, I shall super jump barrier to avoid your mixup...and then get hit anyway."

I've only really seen people get hit "randomly" by it when they jump to block it. They could very well be instant blocking (shaving off 6 frames of blockstun) and making a gap between the hits and not returning from neutral back to holding back fast enough to block the next hit.

[Kakimori]

Can Tsubaki link 236X into 214X now even when the 236X doesn't connect? Like 236C > 214B for fullscreen goodness? I think I saw that but I want to make sure...

Also, does anyone know if the ground projectile C/D versions have different projectile level?

[BatousaiJ]

Canceling on whiff you mean?

Probably not.

What you saw is most likely a D move cancel that allows for cancels on block/hit/whiff. 236C > 214B wouldn't work on whiff, but 236C > 214D would.

Most likely also true in CP.

[TheGreatReptar]

I've seen Tsubaki players do 236X(whiffed)>214D quite a lot. Tsubaki's never been able to cancel into A/B/C versions of specials on whiff or block though, so I wouldn't see why they would suddenly change it.