[CP] Rachel Alucard Gameplay Discussion

[kirbster]

I don't think so, I think she was placed in the A Tier this time around. (Previously, she was in the B Tier... or lower I think.)

At first I felt like she was nerfed for no reason, but as time went by and players discovered her new stuff, I now feel like she's pretty much as strong as in EX, with the potential to be even better.

Instead of simply comparing tier list positions, look at her changes. Here are the most important ones in my opinion :

Nerfs :

-CH lobelias pretty impossible to combo from except in a few situations. This is my biggest complaint

-slight damage nerf overall

-George recovery is ass

-cat chair is even more shit

-it seems almost impossible, or at least really hard to combo from CH 6b midscreen

Buffs :

-she can get consistent good damage off ANY hit now thanks to the new 6a, 4b and 236a, plus the increased gravity

-instant overhead works on everyone

-combo into dash 5b 5cc works on everyone (either Rachel has less pushback on her normals or 5cc hitbox was buffed). This is really good after a fuzzy guard setup

-lotus gives crazy corner carry. It has a lot of untapped potential too for damage and zoning

-lobelias bouncing off the corner is gdlk, and so is the new j.236a trajectory

-also, you almost always have a pole planted after a corner combo for TK sword iris pressure

Off the top of my head these are the changes that matter the most. So take that as you will!

[Wild Candy]

At first I felt like she was nerfed for no reason, but as time went by and players discovered her new stuff, I now feel like she's pretty much as strong as in EX, with the potential to be even better.

Instead of simply comparing tier list positions, look at her changes. Here are the most important ones in my opinion :

Nerfs :

-CH lobelias pretty impossible to combo from except in a few situations. This is my biggest complaint

-slight damage nerf overall

-George recovery is ass

-cat chair is even more shit

-it seems almost impossible, or at least really hard to combo from CH 6b midscreen

Buffs :

-she can get consistent good damage off ANY hit now thanks to the new 6a, 4b and 236a, plus the increased gravity

-instant overhead works on everyone

-combo into dash 5b 5cc works on everyone (either Rachel has less pushback on her normals or 5cc hitbox was buffed). This is really good after a fuzzy guard setup

-lotus gives crazy corner carry. It has a lot of untapped potential too for damage and zoning

-lobelias bouncing off the corner is gdlk, and so is the new j.236a trajectory

-also, you almost always have a pole planted after a corner combo for TK sword iris pressure

Off the top of my head these are the changes that matter the most. So take that as you will!

So in other words, Rachel got more buffs then nerfs, and is almost as close to S-tier Ranking ever since CT where she held the crown.

[samthegreat]

I would say jc-able 6B is pretty cool too.

[Zoular]

^ and isn't j.2C an overhead?

[kirbster]

Lol nah man, that's not what I said. You're focusing too much on the tiers. Basically she's had a bunch of stupid nerfs which I feel are compensated by her buffs, so it kinda evens out.

And she's not even comparable to CT Rachel, that character was stupiddddd

@Sam : oh yeah that's gdlk too, I forgot.

@Zoular : nope, that would be way too strong lol. Basically j.a is instant but the damage off it is bad, which makes it pretty fair.

Edited March 9, 2013 by kirbster

[TD]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=dThiY7i2T3U&t=2h14m44s Painful combo.

I wonder if that "stuff j2c 2a 6a 4b jc Sword Iris Baden Baden Lily" is also possibly from other combo starters.

Looks possible from a decent starter like 2b. It probably wouldn't be the most optimal combo though, at least outside of the launchers like 6a, 5c fc, etc

I thought this was pretty cool with the wall stick > 8D

http://youtu.be/dThiY7i2T3U?t=2h15m54s

Very nice, this shows how we can combo off of George in the corner with a extra upward wind. Maybe not as worth it with Nerfed wind regen and shorter combos... And it may be character specific. (maybe.)

[Wild Candy]

Either way, I'm hyped for CP Rachel!

[Tari]

@kirb:

I feel like I've seen 6B CH combos in some of the videos, but I can't recall which one off the top of my head. :/ I'll keep an eye out for it more, in any case.

@TD:

Is it no longer possible to just 5CC > Frog > 5B into a combo in the corner? Or is that just an alternative combo path? I was under the impression that the old combo still functioned as well, just that it wasn't used due to bad proration/tech-time (which still seems true for the new corner 5CC > frog combo).

Edited March 9, 2013 by Tari

[Zoular]

I've seen CH 6B followed by dash > j.B few times already.

[TD]

l think its not used because frog activates too late after the normal pickups, 5b and 3c. it shouldnt be a proration issue though. there are still combos that link into frog late into it, and from an ok starter at that.

the problem with using frog in combos now is that he gained so much cooldown time, and heat gain/wind regen was nerfed, all traits that made him a staple in the first place. so outside of early in a combo or connecting into bbl, we'd probably be better off doing a melee combo into both summons oki or just save frog and use pumpkin.

also, maybe 5b 5cdc frog 5b 6a 4b 236a (frog hits) 3c works. all of the smp moves are being used so it'd be hard to extend this...

[kirbster]

I've seen CH 6b followed by IAD j.b into combo, but like once or twice. The top japanese players almost nevet hit confirm iy so I'm thinking it's not that easy... Maybe you have to buffer jump cancel even if you don't know if it'll connect to be sure to confirm if you do get the CH.

[samthegreat]

Maybe not as worth it with Nerfed wind regen and shorter combos...

Is it really nerfed though?... It just feels different. I like that it starts earlier at least.

Or maybe it's just the fact that most of her BnBs are grounded and don't require much wind after the confirm.

[TD]

Is it really nerfed though?... It just feels different. I like that it starts earlier at least.

Or maybe it's just the fact that most of her BnBs are grounded and don't require much wind after the confirm.

From my observations, it looks like it regens slower in combos and neutral, like a bigger cooldown (but you are saying its faster, so I dunno) or just because the combos are shorter... In fact, is there a post talking about wind buffs/nerfs anywhere? Perhaps my data is in need of an update.

Also, a little matchup topic. Who do you guys think rachel will have the most trouble with this time? I think it'll be hakumen, hazama, maybe bang and relius.

With primers gone and a general guard break system, Rachel's defense is as strong as its going to get without a dp, and for this reason, I think mu and lambda will be less threatening if they get you to block one of their +a lot moves.

Then there are those she might be very good against. Looks like bullet is going to have severe trouble gaining momentum. Tager. Also looks like Carl is going to have a huge mountain to climb dealing with lotus.

Of course this is just speculation.

[samthegreat]

It starts recovering much faster once you're on the ground in CP. The speed of the recovery itself is nerfed, which makes up for it. Overall I'm not worried about that at all.

As for the matchups I agree with you, but for Hakumen it's mostly just because he's fucking retarded. Mu still looks bad.

[sparkaura]

What seems bad about the Haku MU? It doesn't look too bad to me.

[TD]

rachel has a few problems against hakumen which arent -crippling- but it does throw off her game a bit. he can cut her projectiles, including her staple attacks (5b, 2b) which forces her to alter her timing for attacks. his good approach tools make that difficult, she can turtle but he gains meter each second and his combos hurt. both of their pressure is good but his defense is better.

not much of a problem right? combine that with OD/insane meter gain, combos that kill, and agito.

basically, the matchup would be bad because of haku being really good as opposed to character specifics, though that plays a (big) role too.

[mAc Chaos]

I think she'll be fine. It's pretty much 5-5 in this game where Haku is S tier, except in CP Haku is still S tier but Rachel got better. He could always blow her up with a ton of damage if he got a bead on her, but she's always been good at playing runaway well enough to manage that from becoming unstoppable.

Haku is better in EX after all when it comes to low star damage and corner carry. In CP he can do around the normal damage of 5k or so if you spend 4-5 stars, but his damage with lower star usage is worse.

[sparkaura]

I see. At least his Average combo damage isn't as great. I feel like Rachel zones better this iteration with the inclusion of lobelias bouncing of walls and longer range. Also, with lobelias if hit with it in mid air they seem to travel the arc of the lobelia which makes zoning seem more effective.

[Herbal Grey]

Rachel is terrible vs hakumen :/ . Kishu through lobelias. Countering George is really good in extend. His aerials beat Rachel's aerials and he has a good air grab. Seriously guys....

As far as matchup changes, Buffs and nerfs haven't ever really changed matchups. Don't forget litchi is also a problem (lord knight plays the matchup incorrectly). Although at least instant overheads work on her now though.

[sparkaura]

Ah, alright. I play my friends Haku and I pretty much zone while trying to bait him trying to cut my projectiles. I've played one Litchi and I can see why that MU is problematic.

[mAc Chaos]

Rachel is terrible vs hakumen :/ . Kishu through lobelias. Countering George is really good in extend. His aerials beat Rachel's aerials and he has a good air grab. Seriously guys....

As far as matchup changes, Buffs and nerfs haven't ever really changed matchups. Don't forget litchi is also a problem (lord knight plays the matchup incorrectly). Although at least instant overheads work on her now though.

I think you're overstating how bad it is for Rachel. Whenever I play competent Rachels, it is practically a never ending intense chase while I try to stick to her like glue and she winds around and zones nonstop. I can't really think of how it could be terrible, maybe just a bit disadvantageous. Do you have any examples, or a match vid or something that would show what you're talking about?

Or do you also play Rachel or something, and fight lots of Hakumens.

[gli]

He's played vs. Spark before IIRC lol

[TD]

Rachel is terrible vs hakumen :/ . Kishu through lobelias. Countering George is really good in extend. His aerials beat Rachel's aerials and he has a good air grab. Seriously guys....

As far as matchup changes, Buffs and nerfs haven't ever really changed matchups. Don't forget litchi is also a problem (lord knight plays the matchup incorrectly). Although at least instant overheads work on her now though.

I forgot about litchi, but it doesn't look too bad in cp. probably 5.5 litchi favor max. It looks close.

As for hakumen, well you are able to play spark and what you say is pretty much true. I will agree with Mac though and say its not as bad, though it is a difficult matchup. It is very hard for rachel to zone Haku if he knows the counters. She can stay on Haku a long tone though once she gets in, even with the counters, but she has to end the match quickly which can be difficult.

Pumpkin is still decent to keep out, 3c with wind is good against kishuu, sword iris is harder to predict/cut, lobelias can be shot in a way so that he can't cut them at all. We just have to be very creative and counter what we can.

[kirbster]

Rachel vs Haku is kind of even in EX I'd say. The way I see it, both characters are able to exploit the other's weaknesses, lol. Haku is dumb as fuck in CP (lol 5k off Enma), but the fact that we can now block his counter is gonna help our corner oki a bit. When Haku has stars, just be careful not to press buttons for no reason, always be wary of kishuu (seriously fuck that move, it beats everything we have) and j.c, and don't summon predictably. Another thing that helps is that we can use j.b as an instant overhead on him, which is better damage than j.a.

Nu and Mu are still gonna be an uphill battle because of the character designs, and Bang... well I haven't seen much of him in CP yet. Hazama is still hard too, but at least we can IOH him now.

As for that whore Litchi... I don't understand how anyone can think it's not that bad. She outspaces Rachel in every way. If you notice, what all of Rachel's bad matchups have in common is that those characters all have something that can prevent Rachel from using pumpkin, which she needs to be effective. Swords, lasers, chains, staffs, nails... too easy to make us block at any time, and our normals are not really reliable for footsies.

[Rele]

As far as matchup changes, Buffs and nerfs haven't ever really changed matchups.

Rachel vs Carl in CT // Rachel vs Carl in every other BB iteration