[P4A] Naoto vs. Shadow Labrys

[ludwig van]

Discuss the Shadow Labrys matchup here!

Some notes:

• SLab's Persona is a wall that can protect SLab from full screen if you try to use bullets.
  
• 5C (if you know the Persona will get touched), j.C, and 2AB are strong enough to take away primers.
  
• 236236A silence super is strong, SLab's Persona being broken is even better. All she really has w/o her Persona is DP and j.B.
  
• Late teching can potentially mess up SLab's oki setups, especially j.A/command throw oki.
  
• SLab's oki setups include 5A (cow punch) IAD, 236C/D (mouth laser) IAD and high/low, j.A/command throw.
  
• If you don't late tech j.A/command throw oki, your options include gold bursting (meter for SMP!) or 214214A~C.
  
• Titanomachia's annoying.
  
• The Persona ground slam hits low, not high.
  
• Try air-throwing 8C-happy (cow uppercut) SLabs.
  
• You can jump back j.C SLab's 8C as the cow comes out of the ground, especially useful if the SLab tries to do it full screen.
  
• 2C (horn flames) has a huge horizontal hitbox.
  
  
• If the SLab is in Awakening, know that they might try Brutal Impact (axe super) if their DP whiffs/is blocked.
  

Edited January 15, 2013 by ludwig van

[Tetsuya-San]

I henceforth invoke shenanigans on this matchup.

A smart SLabrys will just throw up the bullshield and wait for you to get close where she can pummel the life out of you off of any random hit. This one's harsh, any tips from more experienced Naotos?

[Sqwirl]

Never found this match up too bad, but that might be because I don't play a zoner naoto...

All I can say is you're better off on the ground this matchup, and your j5c should beat her j5b if you both dash in at each other.

[abadlime]

Never found this match up too bad, but that might be because I don't play a zoner naoto...

All I can say is you're better off on the ground this matchup, and your j5c should beat her j5b if you both dash in at each other.

I wouldn't say beat, but more trade off. After playing some with a decent s.labrys, I found myself reluctant to go in with a j.c since i either trade off or don't hit her at all. Perhaps my timing is off? Though staying on the ground is probably the safe bet since her 2d can reach you when placing traps.

[Sqwirl]

I wouldn't say beat, but more trade off. After playing some with a decent s.labrys, I found myself reluctant to go in with a j.c since i either trade off or don't hit her at all. Perhaps my timing is off? Though staying on the ground is probably the safe bet since her 2d can reach you when placing traps.

Actually I just fought a better shadow laby...j5b defeats j5c unless you do it way before hand. I feel like theres nothing I can do when she comes at me with it cause it destroys all my traps and naotos anti air is worse than Bangs

[djteiikuma]

I hate this dumb matchup.

[Kyle]

So Slabs only loses a card-stock when getting hit by moves doing higher than a certain dmg value.

I believe it's 420. anyone confirm. We also need a list of all Naoto's moves which meet this criteria.

For now I know of

5C

J.C

5th BUllet

236236A

[Dacidbro]

Should be 410

[Angry Guy of DE]

If you are trying to zone in this matchup be very careful of slabrys' Brutal Impact when she is in awakening, the A version is a very powerful, very unsafe on block, reversal. don't risk dropping traps if she is less than midscreen from you since any traps, rising fangs, gunstance, or D moves can be reacted to with BI A version.

Getting the knockdown is the trick here since slabrys' wakeup isn't strong and use of traps can lock her down and let you use your faster normals to catch her.

[Kyle]

Moves which have damage @ or above 410. These will break Slabs persona Stock

5C

5D~D (1) First Hit Only

J.C

J.D

B+D~Attack

B+D~6Attack

2AB? needs DMG confirmation

236B

236A+B

5th Bullet of Snipe

C-Trap

D-Trap

236236B

214214A- All shots & the finisher

Edited September 18, 2012 by Kyle

[Xtra_Zero]

Any good videos of this matchup? I'm tired of losing this one. In my experience the key is to land the silence status effect.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Xtra_Zero

[Kyle]

Slabs has this NASTY OS Oki which truly blows up Naoto & a few other opponents (Yosuke, Teddie, Slabs, Labrys, Chie, Elizabeth & Aigis/Akihikio w/o 50-meter) b/c our lack of reversals & our furious action cannot be crossed-up

Slab's ends an Air combo into the special move which causes hard knockdown. She waits for us to get up & does 9J.A & Command grab.

Naoto cannot:

Roll

Crouch

Stand

Jump

Counterpoke

Furious Action

Reversal w/ 236236A, 236236B, 236236C, 236236D, 214214A

Backdash

Run

You have two options for escape:

Reversal with 214214A~C.

Short hop, Air turn, J.C. 2A+B, J.A+B, J.C.

I have taken lots of loses vs Banana Ken PR to learn this.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Kyle

[Xtra_Zero]

Why can't you jump block the j.a? Does she time it so that it hits during your jump vulnerable window?

[Kyle]

Why can't you jump block the j.a? Does she time it so that it hits during your jump vulnerable window?

Correct

[XVII]

Slabs has this NASTY OS Oki which truly blows up Naoto & a few other opponents (Yosuke, Teddie, Slabs, Labrys, Chie, Elizabeth & Aigis/Akihikio w/o 50-meter) b/c our lack of reversals & our furious action cannot be crossed-up

Slab's ends an Air combo into the special move which causes hard knockdown. She waits for us to get up & does 9J.A & Command grab.

Naoto cannot:

Roll

Crouch

Stand

Jump

Counterpoke

Furious Action

Reversal w/ 236236A, 236236B, 236236C, 236236D, 214214A

Backdash

Run

You have two options for escape:

Reversal with 214214A~C.

Short hop, Air turn, J.C. 2A+B, J.A+B, J.C.

I have taken lots of loses vs Banana Ken PR to learn this.

Try late teching. The command grab will whiff on your recovery. Do it on reaction, though.

Edited September 19, 2012 by XVII

[Xtra_Zero]

I late tech on reaction to avoid SLabrys crossups, but I somehow never see the command grab coming. I either wait too long and get invalid comboed, or tech too early and get reset.

[ludwig van]

I recently chatted w/ Bond about this matchup, and the verdict is basically we pretend to be Mitsuru and play the midrange game. j.C, sweep, and 5C (if you know it'll hit the Persona) are all strong enough to hurt the Persona. Fullrange game is pretty bad for Naoto since SLab has a giant wall protecting her from shots. Also, it's pretty obvious but 236236A is really useful this matchup. SLab with no Persona is a lot easier to deal with (especially if it's broken). And if the SLab loves to 8C, that means you should see how good they are at breaking air throws.

The j.A/command throw oki was mentioned earlier, but know that another option we have is to gold burst. Easy 100 meter to fuel SMPs.

And this is just based on my own experience and will depend purely on the SLab player, but some SLabs seem to be just "training mode" players, as they have the set-ups and whatnot, but are actually really weak defense-wise and run auto-pilot the whole match, and they DP a whole damn lot. Rushing these types of players down should destroy them pretty easily.

EDIT: updated the first post.

Edited January 15, 2013 by ludwig van

[Adelheid]

The key issue, though, is that you aren't Mitsuru, and while you can strike Asterius, you're rather less effectual at it than a lot of other characters. 5B is also NOT strong enough to hurt the persona, you must have more than 400 base power and 5B is at 400 exactly. There is definitely a point at midrange where you can hit her much more effectively than she can hit you, I don't think a competent Shabrys has any particular reason to fear Naoto at midrange.

[ludwig van]

^You're correct about 5B, that's my bad for not verifying second hand data. But I still kind of feel that midrange is Naoto's most comfortable place to be in this matchup (unless the SLab has a weak defense like I stated earlier).

Edit: checked the SLab board, Zouf there says we can jump back j.C SLab's 8C as the cow comes out, tried it in training mode and it works. Should be good to keep in mind if you see a SLab try to use it when shooting at her.

Edited January 15, 2013 by ludwig van

[DerQ]

I had a long set with a local S.lab player yesterday and we talked about the matchup. He says he's usually playing a bit lame with S.lab in other matchups and it's efficient. The conclusion he had was that he needed to come to Naoto since she can play a full screen game better by carefully placing traps. I told him gun was pretty useless considering I'd only hit his blocking persona. We both agreed that we both wanted to come at each other to some extent, but that we both lack proper tools to open up the opponent in the midscreen. Weird ass matchup

Also, I don't know if this could be reliable, but S.Lab's 8C hurtbox seems to appear before the hitbox. I've had it happen by accident before where I would just shoot my gun at the timing the punch would come out and the persona will go away. Though you would end up remaining completly still for a while. Gonna test it out and share my thoughts on it.

EDIT: Just checked, essentially, as soon as the screen starts shaking is your cue for when the hurtbox is currently there. And it's a bit too tight of a time window to try shooting while the persona is coming up. Especially when you can sweep thin air and cancel into w/e you want afterwards.

Edited January 22, 2013 by DerQ