BBCP Story Thread [Old]

[Moy_X7]

Remember that there's still the whole "world's anti-body" (Jin) and the "world chaos" (Ragna) thing going on there. So even when Jin has overcome Yukianesa's psychological influence, his role as the world's anti-body still forces him to want to kill Ragna. Well that and he's still a psycho with a brother complex.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Jin's problems go deeper than Yukianesa. He is literally psychotic when it comes to Ragna. Yukianesa may have made it worse, but even without its influence he wants to kill Ragna. In CS arcade he overcomes Yukianesa's influence through sheer force of will and is as crazy as ever. In CS story mode he overcomes Yukianesa's influence and still wants to kill Ragna. Go through and play his story mode. When Ragna says they'll fight later, Jin gets very excited at the thought of Ragna actually putting his all into it. When Hakumen confronts him in the Cauldron, he says he wants to kill Ragna. It's not like Jin ever stopped wanting to kill Ragna--that was fanon. It didn't invalidate any of his CS character development because he never got past wanting to kill Ragna in the first place. They don't fight for "literally no reason," they fight because Jin wants to kill Ragna and Ragna isn't ready to die just yet. He's not even super dedicated to killing Ragna right now. He wants to save Tsubaki first AND THEN come back and skewer Niisan. iirc, in his arcade quote he still says something about how Ragna better not die to anyone else and gives one of his creepy laughs.

It's possible Jin will lose a little of his fervor towards Ragna, but he's probably always going to have a brother complex. Dude needs years of therapy and some Zyprexa.

I don't want him to completely give up on Ragna, but for his attitude to change. I understand he has a complex, and I understand the dude has got some issues to work out but that still doesn't mean that I like it that whenever he's around Ragna, he becomes a schoolgirl, it's so damn jarring.

What I want is for him to simply tone down the incestuous overtones, that's all. I don't mind it when its used as a gag, but when its supposed to be taken seriously...it just kind of loses flare.

[harmless kitten]

I don't want him to completely give up on Ragna, but for his attitude to change. I understand he has a complex, and I understand the dude has got some issues to work out but that still doesn't mean that I like it that whenever he's around Ragna, he becomes a schoolgirl, it's so damn jarring.

What I want is for him to simply tone down the incestuous overtones, that's all. I don't mind it when its used as a gag, but when its supposed to be taken seriously...it just kind of loses flare.

Unlikely to happen, given that if anything they've played it up (CT vs CTR for instance).

He becomes a schoolgirl to you? Well, maybe if your average schoolgirl is armed with a sword and is ready and very willing to to eviscerate her crush. If you're talking about his moans and heavy breathing, idk, take it up with Kakki and the voice director.

[mAc Chaos]

He probably means more the way he constantly raves about him.

[harmless kitten]

I think that's just one of the things about Jin that's unlikely to change short of a monumental disaster (think Hakumen). He seems to have hardly thought about Ragna at all during the academy, but now that he knows that Ragna is around he can't stop. It's almost a compulsion for him. He JUMPED OUT OF AN AIRSHIP in CS in order to get to him. I think even CS arcade describes his hunt for Ragna as being "drawn by an invisible unknown force."

Fwiw, I think he actually sounds a little more rational in CP. He actually comes across as almost sane when not around Ragna.

[TPPR10]

The problem with Jin still acting like that over Ragna is that it feels like nothing has changed. Like, in the true ending of CS, Jin actually started speaking normally to Ragna when he was explaining what happened in the church. In CP, he still acts like he did in the past around Ragna. I hoped that where Jin's reaction to Ragna didn't dissapear, it would be toned down.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Unlikely to happen, given that if anything they've played it up (CT vs CTR for instance).

He becomes a schoolgirl to you? Well, maybe if your average schoolgirl is armed with a sword and is ready and very willing to to eviscerate her crush. If you're talking about his moans and heavy breathing, idk, take it up with Kakki and the voice director.

It's not the voice actor, it's the overall attitude. And just because its probably not going to change doesn't mean I don't have a right to hate it.

Like the above post said, it feels like nothing has changed with Jin. I know he's gotten over Yukikanesa, and actually has something worth fighting for now but then when he gets around Ragna, it feels like all of that shit is just thrown out the window and its fucking annoying to see a character develop so much in story only to revert.

Like I said, I wouldn't have a problem with it if they toned it down, but as you said they're playing it up more than ever and it annoys me.

[harmless kitten]

He speaks to Ragna normally because Ragna was very badly injured and he was pissed at Noel for doing that. Jin wants to see Ragna die, but he also wants to fight him himself. He gets pissed at the thought of someone else hurting or killing Ragna. Killing a defenseless Ragna wouldn't be fun at all.

Jin has changed. Just him wanting to save Tsubaki first--putting Ragna on the backburner--is a pretty big step. Before, Jin hardly spared a thought for her if he had Ragna on his mind (literally, in CTR he idly thinks to himself that he feels like he should have a reaction towards her, but instead he feels nothing).

and its fucking annoying to see a character develop so much in story only to revert

This is the part I vehemently disagree with.

There is no reversion going on. This aspect of Jin has never really changed in the first place. He's gotten less obsessive, but around Ragna he is still crazy. Which again--hasn't changed from CS. Reversion would be something like him going after Ragna no matter what, with no other care in the world. Reversion would be him being completely apathetic about everything else. This is not the case.

Edited April 16, 2013 by harmless kitten

[mAc Chaos]

Well, even though it's been 3 games, don't forget that the entire story takes place over what, a week or two? That's hardly enough time for anyone to really change that much.

[harmless kitten]

A little over a month.

CT takes place almost entirely on 12/31.

CS takes place from 1/1 to 1/7, with the parts that take place afterward (Carl leaving Kagutsuchi, Ragna and Tao leaving, etc), happening anytime from 1/8 to like 1/10 or something. There are some oddballs like the beginning of Lambda's story mode which is supposed to take place shortly after the Ikaruga Civil War, and Makoto's story which is 12/31.

Most of the dates for CP are very early February (2/2, 2/3, 2/4), but there are flashbacks and time distortions that are earlier. I think Bullet's is on 1/31.

Jin was actually knocked out cold for several days after CT, and then he probably spent at least a couple days in Ronin-Gai. Then the last two or so days were spent chasing after Ragna.

There's an official timeline in the various Setting Material Collections but I'm not on my computer right now. Just note that the timeline provided in CTSMC and translated by Suzaku hasn't been 100% accurate since some of its information has been retconned by CSSMC.

Edited April 16, 2013 by harmless kitten

[BlackYakuzu94]

He speaks to Ragna normally because Ragna was very badly injured and he was pissed at Noel for doing that. Jin wants to see Ragna die, but he also wants to fight him himself. He gets pissed at the thought of someone else hurting or killing Ragna. Killing a defenseless Ragna wouldn't be fun at all.

Jin has changed. Just him wanting to save Tsubaki first--putting Ragna on the backburner--is a pretty big step. Before, Jin hardly spared a thought for her if he had Ragna on his mind (literally, in CTR he idly thinks to himself that he feels like he should have a reaction towards her, but instead he feels nothing).

Still didn't stop him from fighting Ragna for really no reason in his Arcade mode in CP.

This is the part I vehemently disagree with.

There is no reversion going on. This aspect of Jin has never really changed in the first place. He's gotten less obsessive, but around Ragna he is still crazy. Which again--hasn't changed from CS. Reversion would be something like him going after Ragna no matter what, with no other care in the world. Reversion would be him being completely apathetic about everything else. This is not the case.

Like I Said, I'm holding judgment until I see the full story. Maybe I am being pre-judgmental, but I'm going by what I've seen so far, and outside of saving Tsubaki(Which I admit, is a huge step for him) it seems like nothing has really changed with him, and his "NIISAN" attitude really irks the hell out of me.

[NovaFortuna]

You still have to consider Jubei was with him for a month, so what did they do in all that? Did Jubei spent that time doing nothing to help Jin's brother issues, especially when it also would help Ragna big time?

I dunno, they clearly aren't aiming to make Jin threatening or scary, it's pure yaoi bait, with Jin sounding like on a constant orgasm is not what you'd want to give a full blown psycho. Doesn't help either that Ragna can stomp Jin whenever he feels like it. The way it has been exploited mercilessly by the writers reduce Jin to a joke when it happens. Hell, Ragna actually has to look over Jin so he doesn't hurt himself. And well nobody seems really disturbed by the crazy mode, just annoyed.

I guess it has to do with us getting our hopes up with Jin actually getting epic in CS. After all the epic stuff he pulled, and as BlackYakuzu94 said, speaking normally to Ragna, you'd expect some change. But still a major league jerk, still a yandere, still no power of order, going to save Tsubaki is a step yeah, but given the speech they had more than growth it feels like it fall short, given how much development Jin needs.

This is more of a fan wish, but if their not gonna let go of his hunt for Ragna, at least allow him to try to kill him with dignity. It's just...that...that fucking yandere mode. I am actually worried that after saving Tsubaki he goes CT on Ragna again.

Edited April 16, 2013 by NovaFortuna

[harmless kitten]

He fights Ragna because Ragna is right in front of him and why wouldn't he fight him? I don't think he even puts his all into the fight, considering he has other shit to do.

Arcade mode has never really shown any differences in the characters. Everybody but Tsubaki/Izayoi is static in arcade mode. Considering this, Jin actually willingly backing off from Ragna after fighting him in favor of going after Tsubaki is huge.

[mAc Chaos]

I never got the idea that Jin was that weak. Why does everybody think Ragna is just sandbagging against him?

[harmless kitten]

You still have to consider Jubei was with him for a month, so what did they do in all that? Did Jubei spent that time doing nothing to help Jin's brother issues, especially when it also would help Ragna big time?

What's he supposed to say? Especially when he tells Jin to save Ragna, and Jin interprets this as "kill Ragna to save Ragna." Both Ragna and Jin are stubborn bastards, and not even all of Jubei's teachings penetrated Ragna's skull after 5 years.

I dunno, they clearly aren't aiming to make Jin threatening or scary, it's pure yaoi bait, with Jin sounding like on a constant orgasm is not what you'd want to give a full blown psycho. Doesn't help either that Ragna can stomp Jin whenever he feels like it. The way it has been exploited mercilessly by the writers reduce Jin to a joke when it happens. Hell, Ragna actually has to look over Jin so he doesn't hurt himself. And well nobody seems really disturbed by the crazy mode, just annoyed.

His crazy mode around Noel and Nu was so bizarre that I was a little creeped out. Particularly Nu, given the strong implication that it's one of Saya's memories surfacing. Around Ragna, he's supposed to seem desperate, especially in CS--you know, the game where Jin was getting pushed around by everyone because he didn't give himself enough time to recuperate. Ragna is more pissed at Jin than annoyed, and in CS he's mad at Jin being in his way. If Jin wasn't like that, Ragna would still be just as annoyed.

I doubt Ragna could walk all over Jin anymore. It's probably a more even fight.

I guess it has to do with us getting our hopes up with Jin actually getting epic in CS. After all the epic stuff he pulled, and as BlackYakuzu94 said, speaking normally to Ragna, you'd expect some change. But still a major league jerk, still a yandere, still no power of order, going to save Tsubaki is a step yeah, but given the speech they had more than growth it feels like it fall short, given how much development Jin needs.

Jerk is not going to change anytime soon (Hakumen is a total douchebag too), power of order is something extremely situational and is something that not even Hakumen has mastered, etc etc. What epic stuff? Giving a speech about how he'll save Tsubaki and Ragna and that he's given up on apathy is epic now?

This is more of a fan wish, but if their not gonna let go of his hunt for Ragna, at least allow him to try to kill him with dignity. It's just...that...that fucking yandere mode.

You say that like Jin had any dignity in the first place

Also no that's so bad. "I don't like an aspect of this character so I hope he dies." I hate Noel's breast angst too, but I don't want her to die.

@mAc Chaos: Jin certainly thinks that Ragna wasn't giving it his all in CT.

[ Ragna ]

How... How did I lose...to you...!

[ Jin ]

Brother... Don't tell me this is all you've got.

...Why don't you use that Azure Grimoire of yours?

You weren't holding back, were you?

[ Ragna ]

AAAGH! You piece of shit...

[ Jin ]

Hahahaha... I guess... You're just gonna die to me again...

In CS, Jin was hampered by his wounds in Ragna's story mode, and couldn't even wield Yukianesa in his own. I think it's like 6-4 with the match being in Ragna's favor, without using the Azure Grimoire. With it it'd be like 8-2. idk in CP, maybe like 5-5.

edit: shit this post was long, maybe it'd be better to take it to pm or something so I can stop tl;dring in a thread.

[mAc Chaos]

Yeah, Ragna wasn't using the Azure Grimoire... but how do we know Jin was pushed to his limit too. For all we know, Ragna could use the Azure and Jin would still be able to match him. At least, the way Yukianesa's power was demonstrated in that one gag ending with Bang, it can pretty much go out of control and destroy a whole town.

Actually I guess he would have done that in CT...

Edited April 16, 2013 by mAc Chaos

[harmless kitten]

For some reason I got the feeling that Ragna still doesn't give it his all when fighting Jin, even discounting him not using the Azure Grimoire. In CT that is. In CS, he's almost certainly going easy on Jin due to Jin's wounds/Jin not using Yukianesa. I don't remember any hard evidence at this time.

Of course, they could be fairly evenly matched and Jin being so badly injured by CS doesn't refute that. Ragna could've gotten a few particularly hard hits on Jin, much like how Ragna is much stronger than Carl but he was hurt very badly by Nirvana's lucky strike. It's a fighting game so everything is kind of murky though. I think Yukianesa going berserk is something abnormal though, and probably requires a lot of seithr. Also it was kind of a joke ending so.

There's no accurate measure of how strong current Ragna is compared to current Jin, unless you go by Azrael beating up Jin with relative ease while--oh god no I don't want more power debates noooo

[mAc Chaos]

Well, Jin seemed to be taking Nu apart pretty easily in CT, but he only got defeated because she constantly would regenerate and couldn't be defeated. So I felt like that marked him as pretty strong since pretty much everybody else would just get straight out steamrolled by her.

[NovaFortuna]

Post

Well, if he's not gonna help, why take Jin in the first place? If it was a lost case why travel together?

His crazy mode on Noel and Nu can actually be taken seriously, because it is played seriously, unlike the Nisaan mode.

Jerk may stay, it's part of the character, I was just mentioning the stuff he needs to work on, not all should be fixed, but something. And epic stuff? Let's see, after almost two games of chasing a guy's dick and unceremoniously swatted aside by him, he: takes control of his evil weapon, gives quite a speech to Tsubaki (yeah I do find this "okay, enough of doing selfish shit, I am doing what's right for once" awesome, given the kind of person he was until that point), soundly defeats her, dispells Phantom's magic tackles the villiain who has been beating and mocking everybody and forces him to escape, encounters Phantom and lives (though this one may not be awesome, they may have fought or perhaps Phantom just left), and while he got his ass handed over, he could actually stall Mu for Ragna to arrive (and given their little dialogue, that was what he was aiming for). It may fall short to awesome moments of the likes of Ragna or Hakumen, but coming from a guy who all it did until that was have orgasms about Ragna it's a huge moment. Also the different attittude was great, he was actually being heroic, an ass but at least a heroic ass.

Jin started out with dignity, as a renown hero and the rival, he lost it when his true colors were shown and was beaten like a bonus stage and actually got it back as a powerful force and potentially heroic person in CS. Also he is respected by Makoto, the only non mentally screwed member of the NOL, means the guy actually has decency in there somewhere.

What I meant with try to kill him with dignity is, if Jin has to really got for Ragna, then at least show it has a deeper reason than "lol insane", use his regular assholic attitude or something, not Yandere mode for once. Not Jin winning, not them getting over his issues, I'd be happy if Jin is just his cold persona, fighting for something else than just being mentally screwed and acting like a fag.

Long post is long.

[TheBossGiga]

Yeh I believe jin is actually very strong. He was one of the Very few(The only one besides haku I think) people to give hazama a good bit of trouble in a fight.

[harmless kitten]

Well, if he's not gonna help, why take Jin in the first place? If it was a lost case why travel together?

Jin might get lost on the way to Ikaruga. But no, I was mostly teasing. We have no idea what Jubei wants with Jin. He could be telling him stuff and trying to teach him, or he could just be escorting Jin to Ikaruga.

I feel like you're overhyping Jin's moment.

Jin started out with dignity, as a renown hero and the rival, he lost it when his true colors were shown and was beaten like a bonus stage and actually got it back as a powerful force and potentially heroic person in CS.

That's the point. We are introduced to Jin as a hero--THE Hero of Ikaruga. We learn in short order that he's apathetic, disaffected, is alienated by his family, feels all his renown is empty and worthless, and has like no friends outside of maybe Tsubaki (and he hasn't communicated well with her--he didn't even know she was part of the Wings of Justice). His dignity is a false one. You complain about seeing his true colors but that's how he really is. :S You may find it disappointing, but I just find him more interesting. Jin is a stunted man--both mentally and emotionally--and it's only recently that he's been able to piece himself back together. He's always been nice to Makoto and treats her very respectfully and has never really shown his bad side to her, so of course she's going to respect him.

What I meant with try to kill him with dignity is, if Jin has to really got for Ragna, then at least show it has a deeper reason than "lol insane", use his regular assholic attitude or something, not Yandere mode for once.

"My brother is suffering in his own private hell." And then something about wanting to save Ragna from this torment--by killing him. That's not the only reason, but it's the reason Jin presents to Hakumen. Hakumen probably knows better. Jin's motivation for killing Ragna is rooted in childish possessiveness, insanity, extreme jealousy not helped at all by the belief that Ragna liked Saya better, and MAYBE a defense mechanism in order to cope with the fact that he is in some way ordained by fate to kill Ragna.

Not Jin winning, not them getting over his issues, I'd be happy if Jin is just his cold persona, fighting for something else than just being mentally screwed and acting like a fag.

Sounds boring. Also really? Was the fag thing really necessary?

@mAc: I think Jin was mostly fighting on adrenaline and pure hatred against Nu. He totally freaks out against her. She also seems more reserved when fighting against him. I wonder if he might unnerve her tbh.

Edited April 16, 2013 by harmless kitten

[Tokkan]

Chronophantasma's story division confirmed from Famitsu. It will have a main "Chronophantasma" scenario plus "Six Heroes" and "Sector Seven" scenarios, for a total of 3.

[NovaFortuna]

The fag thing necessary? No, it wasn't, I'm sorry for that.

I guess you're right about me overhyping Jin's moments, but they do give several things that can lead to that. We do receive lots of setups of him having an important role, the more the story advances hints of a more positive light is shown about him in his past and that somehow pretty much ended at some point and he became who he is now. And also he is promoted as one of the main heroes of the game (now if he lives up to that role in terms of doing something it's a different story). Jin has this thing that he has lots of good ideas in him that feel used wrong or poorly and they just keep saying he will be important at some point in the whole saving the world thing. If he was a villiain or a minor character there would be not much need of development, but he is a main character so compared to the other 2 he feels underplayed.

But really seems I am asking for too much, whatever, let's stop this here, haven't changed my mind about the matter, but I'm dragging this far more than I should.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Chronophantasma's story division confirmed from Famitsu. It will have a main "Chronophantasma" scenario plus "Six Heroes" and "Sector Seven" scenarios, for a total of 3.

Guess this means we can break it down like this:

Chronophantasma: Ragna, Jin, Noel/Mu(?), Rachel, Tao, Bang, Carl, Nu, Tsubaki/Izayoi, Amane,

Six Heroes: Hakumen, Valkenhayn, Platinum, Hazama/Terumi(?)

Sector 7: Tager, Azreal, Makoto, and Bullet.

Sounds about right.

[NovaFortuna]

I'd put Relius in Sector Seven as well.