BBCP Story Thread [Old]

[mitsuyoshi]

Well,we can say Azrael is pretty much neutral and we all know he will fight Hazama and Relius if he know how powerful they are,but don't forget,there still a bunch of monster in the heroes side,you know Hakumen,Jubei,Noel (Mu version),Rachel,Izayoi,Kokonoe and he still interest in Ragna,so we could say,Azrael alignment is depend of how strong the people is and the heroes side have more than the villain in the current story,so he pretty much gonna fight against the hero this time around,until he satisfied,neutral alright,but if we look at him like this,i say he will be a nuisance for the heroes for a while,i want to see what his reaction though if he meet Jubei.

[psycofang2]

,i want to see what his reaction though if he meet Jubei.

Hisokaorgasm.JPG

[NovaFortuna]

I'll just repeat this:

I dunno, but from what has been said of Azrael he is evil, or a complete psychopath at least. He isn't as evil as Terumi or Relius, but seriously we have been told the guy just to satisfy his hunger of battle attacks everything, doesn't care if they are friends or allies so long he can have fun. If Jin's comments are to go by the guy was a serious mass murderer, and Azrael really doesn't seem to think much of his many dangerous sounding nicknames, he even seemed to like the idea.

I know he is badass, manly, awesome and everything, but that's not really a good reason to give him the "leather pants".

He may be neutral in terms of what he has done regarding the two opposing sides of the current story, but pretending he is not a bad guy on his own behaviour is a stretch.

Edited April 4, 2013 by NovaFortuna

[mitsuyoshi]

@NovaFortuna,Yeah he is really evil,but we can't say anything to,because,he still doesn't do anything major and we all know what he has done is walking around just to find a worthy opponent ,so he still pretty munch neutral,but have some serious evil side.

@psycofang,that would be really funny if his reaction is like that,i bet that will make Jubei feel uneasy or even scared him,before they fight.

[BlackYakuzu94]

He's killed countless people......

So have Ragna & Jin. Ya know, our protagonists.

People have some really messed up views of Good and Evil apparently lol.

This series has a really wonky morality scale. It's hard to fit characters into good or evil, except Hazama & Relius.

What!? I don't see it like that at all D:

It's not a "shades of grey" kind of thing because Ragna doesn't kill the people because he has to, rather because he can, he shows no regard for human life simple due to their association. Ragna is a terrorist, but the negative connotations of his actions are merely glossed over and never brought up because we're led to believe that the NOL has the most straight forward screening process in the world:

"Do you have a hidden agenda and/or a complete twat?" "Yes? Welcome to the NOL!"

I mean, the general consensus for ruling parties (especially among the younger demographic) is the people hate you, but this is just on a whole different level. I would love to see an NOL officer join the cast; one that's just an ordinary man/woman, because I'd like a less skewed view of their side of things. But this type of character study probably won't fly in the normal tropes of Japanese storytelling.

I really have a hard time believing Ragna would kill people without being provoked into doing so. It just doesn't line up with the characterization he's been presented with; he's been shown to be capable of mercy and even gratitude, and feeds hungry people, albeit reluctantly. Ragna is only after Hazama and generally leaves people out of his way unless they oppose him.

I'm not glossing over his faults tho; provoked or not, he did still kill innocent people and heart of gold he may have, he's still a massive dick to everyone around him even when they don't do anything to provoke such a reaction. I say it's black & grey morality because while the protagonists aren't the nicest or most heroic characters around, they have their virtues and the people whom they oppose are far worse than they are.

As for the NOL, we really don't know much about them. Who knows, maybe the NOL truly have noble intentions and are only doing what they can to ensure the survival of the world; the way Tsubaki talks about them would suggest that is the case. Since the only things we know about the NOL is that Hazama & Relius are exploiting the hell out of it for their own purposes, it's pretty easy to paint them in a much more negative light than they actually are.

[mAc Chaos]

> Ragna and Jin

Well, putting aside the fact that Jin was a villain until recently... Killing people isn't evil by itself. What matters is why.

If someone attacks you and you have to kill in self defense, that's hardly your fault.

But if you're doing it purely for your enjoyment then there's no excuse.

[SolxBaiken]

I really have a hard time believing Ragna would kill people without being provoked into doing so. It just doesn't line up with the characterization he's been presented with; he's been shown to be capable of mercy and even gratitude

Chaotic screams, shouting, and the agony of death. Making no distinction between men, women, or those trying to escape, he cut every last one of them down. There would be no mercy from Ragna. He no longer recognized his foes as "human". Garbed in those unsightly "blue uniforms", they were the "Azure" which he hated.

The battle gradually took on the aspect of a one-sided slaughter...

Some hero D:

Ragna may have become a "better" person, but [to me] that doesn't excuse what he has done, and the sad fact is, it will never be address. BlazBlue is a "youth in revolt" story, everyone hates "The Man" [which is probably why Guilty Gear simplified the matter by referring to their main antagonist as such ] and thus the NOL as a whole is just viewed as as "bad" so his above actions are "excused" and will probably never be mentioned in canon again v.v

The NOL is just a governing body, and no one "likes" their government, and even if [and there obviously are] corrupt individuals, it doesn't make the entire structure shit. More than likely there's probably an internal struggle on the horizon (maybe even led by the character that's been brought up a ton in CP) which is only further muddled by the likes of splinter groups such as Sector 7.

[NovaFortuna]

> Ragna and Jin

Well, putting aside the fact that Jin was a villain until recently... Killing people isn't evil by itself. What matters is why.

If someone attacks you and you have to kill in self defense, that's hardly your fault.

But if you're doing it purely for your enjoyment then there's no excuse.

In Jin's defense, we keep getting more and more hints and implications that he was being mindscrewed, manipulated, traumatized and corrupted by several things (memory loss, Yukianesa, the power of order, Hazama's control, traumas). Apparently, even the Ikaruga massacre wasn't his fault and was being directly controlled by Hazama again.

Doesn't make him less of a horrible person, but it's different when you are pushed to be horrible and given some flashbacks and stuff, he was actually a decent guy before all the external factors kicked in.

[zeth07]

So have Ragna & Jin. Ya know, our protagonists.

This series has a really wonky morality scale. It's hard to fit characters into good or evil, except Hazama & Relius

Except I never said Ragna & Jin didn't do anything "evil", like you said Azrael didn't when he in fact did.

The difference being Ragna was presumably doing it for "the greater good", and putting a stop to the "evil" that the NOL was doing with the cauldrons in secret from what the public probably knows. (Not counting the fact that his killings were apparently retconned out anyway).

Jin killing people was during part of the Ikaruga War if anything, which is "reasonable" for why he killed anyone, given the context. (Not counting the fact that he could've been manipulated most of the time by Yukianesa or Hazama)

Azrael on the other hand seemed to do it to the point of it being "genocide".

The fact that BlazBlue's setting does have the Black And Gray Morality does make it hard to label "good" and "evil" in the purest sense, but within BlazBlue itself it is pretty simple in my opinion on who the "good guys" are and who the "bad guys" are.

Why SoBa has some disdain for Ragna like he is a horrible human being and somehow Azrael isn't is beyond me lol.

[kylehyde]

hense why i used the word SUBJECTIVE in my earlier posts.

it doesnt matter if they are paid to do so, how you look at it depends on how its precieved. to some them laying down their lives to protect the civilization they have after a horrible war is noble and heroic where as some wack jpb with an Azure and a revenge plot comes in guns blazing killing them all.

its subjective x N.

also considering most of the NOLs forces are military trained teenagers i really dont think alot of them are as oppressive and evil like the very tiny top few.

It doesn't matter, when your given the powers to take a life you better be ready to lose yours as well. We're just going to go on in circles so I'm going to stop here.

[harmless kitten]

In Jin's defense, we keep getting more and more hints and implications that he was being mindscrewed, manipulated, traumatized and corrupted by several things (memory loss, Yukianesa, the power of order, Hazama's control, traumas). Apparently, even the Ikaruga massacre wasn't his fault and was being directly controlled by Hazama again.

Doesn't make him less of a horrible person, but it's different when you are pushed to be horrible and given some flashbacks and stuff, he was actually a decent guy before all the external factors kicked in.

What no yes he did it of his own free will. It's only AFTER he kills Tenjou does Hazama pop up (in his ghost form) and goes SURPRISE and eats his memories.

It is pretty funny how Memory of Blue didn't romanticize Ragna's destruction of the Akitsu NOL branch at all, but the actual games completely gloss over it. then again, his behavior is at odds with some of the stuff in Memory of Blue. I don't think it was really retconned out, but that's impossible to know unless a Japanese speaker goes over Hazama's dialogue to Noel in CTR. Personally, I don't think you get the name Grim fucking Reaper without actually reaping a few people. The notion that Ragna didn't kill anybody in Akitsu or the previous NOL branch he destroyed (don't remember its name) is boggling.

eh, likely enough the only truly innocent characters in BB are Bang and Tao anyway.

Edited April 5, 2013 by harmless kitten

[YukiBlue]

For my view on Azrael.

The dude just wants to fight. I can't see him giving a shit about the BB plot as long as he gets to fight to stronk guys. To my knowledge, regarding who he has fought and defeated.

He didn't defeat Rachel, I only hear that he wounded her or "Surprised" her with his strength or whatever. I just don't think it practical to defeat Rachel at this point, especially so early in the story, if so. That's poor writing.

He bodied Valk as we saw in his arcade mode. He was at 20% and was laughing at Valk collapsed. That shit is bonkers.

He bodied Jin. Straight up no nonsense.

He bodied Ragna at 20% before going to Dragunov Lvl 2 to match the Idea Engine, all whilst laughing and showing no signs of fatigue or slowing down.

I'd like to see where he really stacks up against the likes of Hakumen, Terumi and the other OP Plot armour gangsta's. I can see him getting smacked down for the plot. But such is life.

So, Azrael to me is neutral. He won't care for details, he wants to fight and thats it, though I don't know how far he would be willing to go to fight the big guys like Hakumen, He might just wade right into the plot and fuck shit up? Who knows.

Very interesting, though.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Some hero D:

Good thing he's an Anti-Hero then

Ragna may have become a "better" person, but [to me] that doesn't excuse what he has done, and the sad fact is, it will never be address. BlazBlue is a "youth in revolt" story, everyone hates "The Man" [which is probably why Guilty Gear simplified the matter by referring to their main antagonist as such ] and thus the NOL as a whole is just viewed as as "bad" so his above actions are "excused" and will probably never be mentioned in canon again v.v

I'd have a better time believing this if Blazblue's story wasn't so cynical. Anyway, I don't think it's really going to matter whether it's brought up or not, Ragna's made it pretty clear that he doesn't give a shit what anyone thinks about him.

The NOL is just a governing body, and no one "likes" their government, and even if [and there obviously are] corrupt individuals, it doesn't make the entire structure shit. More than likely there's probably an internal struggle on the horizon (maybe even led by the character that's been brought up a ton in CP) which is only further muddled by the likes of splinter groups such as Sector 7.

Keep in mind the Ikaruga War, don't really think they're as noble as you're making them out to be.

Except I never said Ragna & Jin didn't do anything "evil", like you said Azrael didn't when he in fact did.

The difference being Ragna was presumably doing it for "the greater good", and putting a stop to the "evil" that the NOL was doing with the cauldrons in secret from what the public probably knows. (Not counting the fact that his killings were apparently retconned out anyway).

Jin killing people was during part of the Ikaruga War if anything, which is "reasonable" for why he killed anyone, given the context. (Not counting the fact that he could've been manipulated most of the time by Yukianesa or Hazama)

Azrael on the other hand seemed to do it to the point of it being "genocide".

True, mac pointed it out that it's more about the "why" than the "what" really.

The fact that BlazBlue's setting does have the Black And Gray Morality does make it hard to label "good" and "evil" in the purest sense, but within BlazBlue itself it is pretty simple in my opinion on who the "good guys" are and who the "bad guys" are.

Well even within the story it's kinda hard. The story doesn't really idealize it's protagonists(One of them was a villain till recently) with the only clear cut villains once again being Hazama & Relius.

Why SoBa has some disdain for Ragna like he is a horrible human being and somehow Azrael isn't is beyond me lol.

It's because Azreal is manly, and manly characters can get a free pass for everything. Hell, I'm even having a hard time hating Azreal for his manliness.

[SolxBaiken]

Why SoBa has some disdain for Ragna like he is a horrible human being and somehow Azrael isn't is beyond me lol.

Because Azrael doesn't hide who he is and what he's done, [thanks to Patrick Seitz and the comedy sketches] I originally liked Ragna as a person...then I read his CT short story and my perception of Ragna will be forever shattered .v.

And it's not so much that I dislike what he did, I dislike that it won't ever be brought up and could totally be an interesting character study.

Keep in mind the Ikaruga War, don't really think they're as noble as you're making them out to be.

Wasn't that a "civil war" or "uprising"? Remind me why it was bad again, because I've honestly forgotten what little details were ever truly brought up about it outside of it being Bang's homeland and that it established Jin's infamy.

I'm in no way trying to say the NOL are the holiest of saints, however they are the world order and primary governing body, they're a large organization and in no way can control ALL of it's individual members, but just because there are a few bad apples (despite how high they may be) doesn't mean the whole system is corrupt. It's like saying because the cops in your city are assholes that your entire country's government is Satan R' Us.

[psycofang2]

It doesn't matter, when your given the powers to take a life you better be ready to lose yours as well. We're just going to go on in circles so I'm going to stop here.

even so we are going in circles because its a belief system that governs good and evil.

thats why i say subjective.

it creates circles simply because you believe trained teenagers know full well what they are getting into and are ready and completely willing to lay down their lives.

i donot believe so, considering how the nol and the families of the highest tier works i dont even believe some had a choice in the matter.

[kylehyde]

even so we are going in circles because its a belief system that governs good and evil.

thats why i say subjective.

it creates circles simply because you believe trained teenagers know full well what they are getting into and are ready and completely willing to lay down their lives.

i donot believe so, considering how the nol and the families of the highest tier works i dont even believe some had a choice in the matter.

At the very least in this we can agree.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Wasn't that a "civil war" or "uprising"? Remind me why it was bad again, because I've honestly forgotten what little details were ever truly brought up about it outside of it being Bang's homeland and that it established Jin's infamy.

I'm in no way trying to say the NOL are the holiest of saints, however they are the world order and primary governing body, they're a large organization and in no way can control ALL of it's individual members, but just because there are a few bad apples (despite how high they may be) doesn't mean the whole system is corrupt. It's like saying because the cops in your city are assholes that your entire country's government is Satan R' Us.

As long we're in agreement that the NOL aren't the shining beacons of purtiy, I'm cool.

[mAc Chaos]

I thought the manual itself describes the NOL as pretty much corrupt and constantly having to deal with some internal strife. And then it finally culminated in the Ikaruga rebellion which they put down by burning the homeland to the ground or using that space satellite thing on it.

[NovaFortuna]

I thought the manual itself describes the NOL as pretty much corrupt and constantly having to deal with some internal strife. And then it finally culminated in the Ikaruga rebellion which they put down by burning the homeland to the ground or using that space satellite thing on it.

But still I don't think that means that every soldier in the NOL is corrupt and a bad person, I can see the higher ups being horrible people that pull the strings, but raw soldiers may just want their paychecks to feed their families and have no clue what's really going on.

[SolxBaiken]

Ok so I opened up my CT and read away:

The NOL is described as a dictatorship, which of course will immediately draw parallels of communism, however in a world gone to shit they were apparently the first to step up (which I assume was the Duodecim) as someone needed to regulate this new force of combined might and magic (because we all know people can't be left up to their own device). This seemed all well and good until Ikaruga grew the bollocks to say "hey no fair, sharing is caring" and I can only assume the NOL said "shut up, we saved your asses". This sparked the war/uprising, and well of course, if 1 person(s) oppose your word, it's only a matter of time before other people do as well, this is kingship 101, so an example had to be made! This lead to the destruction of Ikaruga and the new decree that if you oppose the NOL you'll see the same.

From the above, that's not inherently "evil" it's just standard feudal ruling class. Again I no doubt [with the multitude of hidden agendas] that the NOL is kind of a bad place, however I doubt it's this douche factory that the main story tries to paint it as, merely (as "rebellion" is the central theme of BB as a whole) just something to make things "simple".

Again, the character that keeps getting referenced in CP's arcade modes make me think that an NOL rebellion is likely, after all we know who the Imperator is and is yet another person with a hidden agenda, so either a "good natured" faction will arise or some other organization will rise up as the new world order.

Also after re-reading the section, Ragna's killings could NOT have been retconned because they're what put him on the NOL radar (the "severity" may have been altered to make the NOL more "evil" and thus Ragna's actions more "sympathetic") but it still happened! .v.

[zeth07]

Ok so I opened up my CT and read away:

The NOL is described as a dictatorship, which of course will immediately draw parallels of communism, however in a world gone to shit they were apparently the first to step up (which I assume was the Duodecim) as someone needed to regulate this new force of combined might and magic (because we all know people can't be left up to their own device). This seemed all well and good until Ikaruga grew the bollocks to say "hey no fair, sharing is caring" and I can only assume the NOL said "shut up, we saved your asses". This sparked the war/uprising, and well of course, if 1 person(s) oppose your word, it's only a matter of time before other people do as well, this is kingship 101, so an example had to be made! This lead to the destruction of Ikaruga and the new decree that if you oppose the NOL you'll see the same.

From the above, that's not inherently "evil" it's just standard feudal ruling class. Again I no doubt [with the multitude of hidden agendas] that the NOL is kind of a bad place, however I doubt it's this douche factory that the main story tries to paint it as, merely (as "rebellion" is the central theme of BB as a whole) just something to make things "simple".

Again, the character that keeps getting referenced in CP's arcade modes make me think that an NOL rebellion is likely, after all we know who the Imperator is and is yet another person with a hidden agenda, so either a "good natured" faction will arise or some other organization will rise up as the new world order.

Also after re-reading the section, Ragna's killings could NOT have been retconned because they're what put him on the NOL radar (the "severity" may have been altered to make the NOL more "evil" and thus Ragna's actions more "sympathetic") but it still happened! .v.

After all that I still don't understand why you're trying to put spin on it to make the NOL "not so bad" and Ragna the devil lol.

It's like

Shinra to Avalanche

. The parallels are more or less the same. The NOL is "bad", while members of it (particularly Hazama/Relius) are "evil". And since they are pulling the strings, you should be able to get the idea.

[SolxBaiken]

Because Rawrgnya is the devil ; -;

The world must have order, and the NOL provides that, but Ragna disrupts that!

Between

ZHP, Full Metal Alchemist, and Avatar (not the blue monkeys)

I guess I just can't see world order forces as merely faceless "bad guys", I guess I've just come to expect more. And the fact that the most viable complaint against the NOL from the populous is the NOL is a bit selfish and favors those who can utilize Ars. Also given the slice-of-life academy years of Jin, Noel, Tsubaki, Makoto, and Carl, come on, you can't seriously tell me this is a Goon Patrol factory.

No governing body is without it's darkness (look at all the stuff the world says about America \o/) but I think we're getting further and further away from why I sympathize with the NOL. Ragna killed, nay, murdered cowering, fleeing agents, including women; the second biggest offense next to children ; w;

[BlackYakuzu94]

No one ever said that the NOL are the bad guys, just that the people in charge are massive dicks who have no problem exploiting everyone within.

And I still can't see why you're trying to paint Ragna in a worse light than he actually is. The way you're making it sound, you're treating it like he's a malicious monster who doesn't care who he kills on his path to vengeance.

[kylehyde]

Because Rawrgnya is the devil ; -;

The world must have order, and the NOL provides that, but Ragna disrupts that!

I take it Ragna is not your favorite character and you can't wait to see him get killed lol.

[Soothesayer]

It seems like the order the NOL want is basically the order where they're in total control. I think whatever good intentions they had in the beginning have been soured by arrogance and corruption. The NOL have a reputation of being elitists and not giving a damn about issues unless it threatens them somehow. That's not to say there aren't good NOL members who are just doing their job to feed their kids or really want to keep things well, but as a whole I can't really bring myself to sympathize with them.