[^C] Baiken [COMBO]

[metsuke]

She may be more 'fun', but I'm really not liking her damage. Also, the wallbounce on the j.mat is extremely annoying. j.s-d, ad.p-d, land, 5s JC j.d is possible from deep corner, but the timing on the ad.p-d is tight. You have to do it fast enough to get the 'dashbrake' version of the j.d.

[Hellmonkey]

I like the wallbounce on j.tatami, it might suck if you hit with one midscreen, but you can still iad j.S j.D if you can react fast enough, then they're in the corner for oki. counterhitting with it = corner knockdown from almost anywhere on anyone. I was playing with relaunch dustloop j.S j.D ad j.S j.D frc tatami, I can only get it to really work on lights. (another j.S j.D ad j.S j.D afterwards)

[IllogicalDreamr]

Baiken's combos are definitely more fun to do. I could care less about the lessened damage. No big deal. It only seems fair. She's not some hulking beast or anything. I expect more people to whore her out because she's higher tier now. =/

[metsuke]

Damage is what will win you games, fun is just gravy. Baiken has to work really hard for decent damage now, and her mixups haven't really improved either; i.e., her combos do much less damage and it's not any easier for her to land hits. The only thing that really warrants her being high tier is the guard cancel options, which is bordering on broken. In my experience, the j.d FRC 236k into another dustloop is more dependant on distance from the corner than on weight. If you have them right up against the wall, the combo works against pretty much everyone, except maybe the really heavy people. As for the j.mat, a counterhit mat from anywhere used to be good for at *least* 150 damage no tension, and upwards of 200 with tension or in the corner. Maybe I'm just not used to it, but I think the new mat frankly sucks. Not being able to link j.s from standing mat is also complete bullshit. There's got to be a way to get the fast fall version of j.d consistently in normal loops, but aside from just hitting it as fast as you can, I have no clue.

[Hellmonkey]

Damage is what will win you games, fun is just gravy. Baiken has to work really hard for decent damage now, and her mixups haven't really improved either; i.e., her combos do much less damage and it's not any easier for her to land hits.[

disagree.

The only thing that really warrants her being high tier is the guard cancel options, which is bordering on broken.

they help, but adding ouren and nerfing sakura are not the changes that make her A-S tier

As for the j.mat, a counterhit mat from anywhere used to be good for at *least* 150 damage no tension, and upwards of 200 with tension or in the corner.

the new combos off counter hit tatami are much better as they still do decent damage and you can get a corner knockdown almost every time

Maybe I'm just not used to it, but I think the new mat frankly sucks. Not being able to link j.s from standing mat is also complete bullshit.

So you sacrifice adding a j.P early in a combo for a knockdown? Hardly something to complain about.

There's got to be a way to get the fast fall version of j.d consistently in normal loops, but aside from just hitting it as fast as you can, I have no clue.

The timing is tight, and only works against certain characters when you launch certain ways. It's much easier if you do the initial j.D under them (so they'll be higher up when you j.P j.D), although honestly most of the time it's not even worth doing that combo (as it adds 10-20 damage at most)

The new baiken has MANY more opportunities for okizeme. Seeing as her pokes are mediocre at best, and her anti-airs are pretty much trash, getting knockdowns off of almost any j.D as well as ouren help her tremendously. Look at the %damage you do with combos, considering that almost every one of them ends up in okizeme of some type, your ability to actually get the damage in and keep pressure on to win the match is greatly increased.

AC Baiken >>> Slash Baiken

[metsuke]

Name her oki improvements. The corner knockdowns come from j.d not wallbouncing. They have absolutely nothing to do with the tatami launch properties, which are garbage. Think about this: if they'd left tatami the same with the new j.d, counterhit mat from midscreen gets you 6h JC aircombo into j.d for ... you guessed it - corner knockdown. Going off the match videos, Baiken's high-tier status is due almost entirely to people not being able to pressure her. Offensively she's nothing special.

[IllogicalDreamr]

Offensively she's nothing special.

It's always been this way. She's always been a more defensively played character.

[Hellmonkey]

Name her oki improvements.

it's her ability to be in the position to okizeme which has improved so much, not the okizeme itself (although it has a bit, with j.D sped up you can low j.K and land 2K or j.D mixup, and it actually works now). Since every air combo midscreen never knocked down in Slash, you rarely got chances to oki.

The corner knockdowns come from j.d not wallbouncing. They have absolutely nothing to do with the tatami launch properties, which are garbage. Think about this: if they'd left tatami the same with the new j.d, counterhit mat from midscreen gets you 6h JC aircombo into j.d for ... you guessed it - corner knockdown.

You're right that you can't combo off of it as well as you could before, but is a tiny nerf compared to the major buff from everything else, and nothing to complain about.

Going off the match videos, Baiken's high-tier status is due almost entirely to people not being able to pressure her. Offensively she's nothing special.

She has never had the offense as most other characters because she can attack while blocking. Nothing new here.

[metsuke]

The ability to do oki after every combo is only a real advantage if the character has strong oki setups. Baiken's oki options have always been limited and unimpressive, so I'm not convinced that all of those knockdowns are really the improvement you're making it out to be. The match videos I've seen don't suggest strong oki either. What they *do* suggest is Baiken players mashing on guard cancels to get out of all sorts of things they wouldn't normally be able to get out of, and I think that *is* a genuine and immediate advantage. I wouldn't call the mat nerf 'tiny', considering the damage and combo potential it's costing her. Air/counterhit mats used to be great, easy damage setups from anywhere - not anymore. Baiken's offense used to be quite a bit better because she had scary damage potential for 25% tension. 236k FRC iad.d 6h dustloops turned 25% tension into 250+ damage unless you started with a prorate. Counterhit 5s/2s xx 236k lolol? And counterhit mat used to be genuinely scary because of the 6h -> dustloop followup. Now what? For all that you guys worship Sharon, you're sure quick to forget all the 60~70% damage combos he landed. In #Reload Baiken was one of the highest damage characters in the game, and the intro of JCable 6h in Slash and FRC Tetsuzansen only opened up more combo options. AC is the reverse - making you work harder for less damage. Sure, you get knockdowns now - whether that's enough to compensate for her overall much lower damage is up for debate.

[Hellmonkey]

Baiken doesn't have strong Oki setups? She does "much" less damage? Have you looked at the %damage from a throw -> tatami dloop in the corner? Have you seen the damage from a CH air tatami -> 6HS 2D j.S j.P j.S j.D -> corner knockdown? Baiken's Oki is hardly weak, if you catch people with a 6K, youzansen RC, dust (especially!), or any low hit you're going to do quite a bit of damage, and get another knockdown from almost any of those situations anywhere on the screen depending on how much meter you use. There is no debate about whether the damage-knockdown "trade" was good for her, she is top tier, even with everyone else buffed so much... If you think that she "works harder for less damage" now, and that that is a flaw with her, perhaps she's not the character for you :P

[IllogicalDreamr]

Ok, so, how about this? If you don't like AC Baiken, why don't you just keep playing Slash and stop complaining about the "nerfs" she's gotten in AC? Now everything is settled.

[bizarro]

I really hate the tetsuzansen FRC nerf. They can tech way too early... there's absolutely no reason to FRC anymore, except on block to try a mixup

[metsuke]

Sure, pick the two combos she can still do. What happened to her 236k FRC iad.d, 6h -> dustloop? Tetsuzansen FRC 6h? Sakura FRC 6h? And counterhit mat combos are actually distance dependant now - before AC you got at least 150 from anywhere, and a fat dustloop with tension (CH 236k, 6h JC j.d FRC iad.236k, dustloop) or in the corner. Her oki doesn't suck, but it's certainly nothing to write home about. Dust is tricky to setup because it's incredibly slow, so the amount of conditioning you have to do to even make it worth trying is pretty high. Youzansen RC takes half meter, so while it does lead to decent damage, it's not exactly one of her best options. Baiken's low hits have stupid prorates, so I'm not sure why you even bother mentioning that, and they have no reason to block high unless you have 50% meter anyway. LIke I said, the reason she's top tier is because of her guard cancel game. Most of the cast has no way to pressure her safely, and it's harder to bait GCs. And yeah, I'm thinking Baiken isn't the character for me, which is why I'm working over Jam and ABA. And frankly, I *would* keep playing Slash, except that you don't have a choice with fighting games, now do you? You have to play what everyone else is playing, or else you don't have competition.

[Hellmonkey]

She still does high damage, compared to most of the cast. Why bother comparing combos directly between slash and AC when the properties of j.D and mat have changed completely? The nerf to tetsuzansen was needed, going into 6HS after it was too good, it's still worth FRCing so you don't get the proration off the second hit and so you can combo after it on everyone. She has fewer options for oki that are harder to apply than other characters, but that's part of Baiken. The changes to j.D help her Okizeme a lot, seeing as she can low j.K and mixup high/low MUCH better, as going into j.D is an option now. She has excellent defense (guard cancels), but has always had to work hard to get damage in, especially with her poor pokes almost never going into combos (although they do more now, as you can 5S jc j.D and get knockdowns much further than trying to 2D. And about her low hits having "stupid" prorates, you still get 180-200+ damage plus a knockdown with no or 25% tension in the corner, which is hardly bad. Baiken has ALWAYS been a defensive character, I don't see why you complain about that now. The "nerf" on her damage seems miniscule, I can still kill people in 2-3 combos, and now they're easier to get in for. The changes to Baku are awesome as well. They have huge potential IMO, as they give you a HUGE advantage in any matchup you land it in. (if you capitalize on it before it wears off)

[metsuke]

I'm complaining because she doesn't do as much damage as she used to, and I frankly don't see that the increased oki opportunities really makes up for that. The aspect I really liked about Baiken was being able to set up the really massive combo after landing that one solid (counter)hit in the corner. Now she's more of a 'small combo into knockdown, rinse and repeat' character, and that's just not what I was going for. For that kind of playstyle I'd just play Millia, thanks. Which, again, is why I'm considering Jam or ABA. Or, actually, I'm just dropping GG entirely because the PS2 version is bugged to hell. So anyway, good talking to you guys.

[Hellmonkey]

30-50 or 60% combos are small, rinse and repeat combos? The PS2 bugs hardly effect gameplay. Good talking to you too.

[Zakuta Asura]

Baiken's oki is pretty good still. Meaty j.K and j.H are awesome - maybe moreso for j.K because you can mix between j.K > 2K and j.K > j.D both of which you can easily combo from, depending on how you approach your opponent or where they are. You'll land safely agaisnt 99.9% of attack when using j.K and if the opponent backdashes, you're not in a bad position, unless the character you're facing off against has a good fast backdash. 6K also works but you lose out on the throw invincibility, but you can just chain into 2H after for a simple guard balance increase. Pretty good I'd say. You need not worry about dragons ever again! =p Baiken still does a lot of damage - it may be harder to clock it, but I feel it's worth it...and it's frikkin hard to time YZS RC > IAD Tatami, which works much better than a standard mat!

[youcanwonder]

which one is her oki?? its funny ive been playin this game for years but never took the time to learn the moves names..help is good lol please. and she seems to have changed quite a bit in ac, but it seems her rush down is a lot better. im not familiar on what i can combo yet cuz i havent seen many videos but you guys can help me if you want lol. this is terrible i sorry.

[Shinjin]

In metsuke's defense, Baikens combos where way more interesting in / than AC. Her combo-capacity has gone down since the jD falldown. But i'm working hard on coming up with some nasty shit. jHS, tatami, 6HS is the shit. The thing about AC-baikencombos is as soon as you use jP the damage becomes *meh*, so if you have problem getting it to the 40% limit, try starting combos with 6K 5HS tatami and then an aircombo without jP and you will se some nice damage. Landing Baku-movementseal and then sealing an important button, (ex S for Jam) was great fun! I was at the swedish AC-releaseparty and it was really fun playing around with Baku. (custommade free jHS tatami-pressure anyone?).

[Zakuta Asura]

I suggest that if you want to find the fun combos, you use AD j.P-D more. Also, you can do hj.P-S-D > AD > j.D in some situations (always on lights) ...in past games, you had to FRC or get the right distance to land this. And you can still do good damage even with j.P - just that you have to pressure more to get the damage you want. After a few blocked attacks you'll start CASHING IN~

[Shinjin]

Zakuta... after pressure, combos without j.P deals better dmg to :V The Baikenforum would need some serious fixing though,but perhaps we should wait until some time has passed.

[Hellmonkey]

it'll still do more to do fastfall j.P j.D -> 5S j.D (or j.S j.D on some characters) than just j.S j.D or even j.S j.P j.S j.D after the air dash To be honest, though, if their guard gauge is up you better go for something flashy instead :V

[tolore]

anyone else have trouble dust looping sol(HOS and normal), whether i do j.p->j.d or j.p->j.s->j.D the j.d always goes under him. Dizzy is another one i'm having trouble with, the j.p won't even hit after tatami mat. any tips for htese 2 or are they just impossible/super hard to loop?

[Hideki]

Any way to loop Johnny? He´s too heavy I think...

[Hellmonkey]

A lot of stuff doesn't work, I found when playing johnnies. Haven't had a chance to training mode him though.