[CP] Amane Nishiki Gameplay Discussion

[Cynthetik]

Just another quick question, is there any images of Amane's Hitboxes? I wanna know the hitbox on j.2C cause I keep magically hitting the opponent even though im really not on them. The Dustloop Wiki's images for all of them are 404'd >:

 

As far as I know, there are no good pictures of any of Amane's hitboxes. I can say for certain that the hitboxes on all of his C normals are much bigger than they would lead you to believe. I am pretty sure that all of them go well past where the knot at the end shows, mostly out past/above/below/side of the knot and not behind because he has the blind spots on all of them.

[Skoogabear]

Oh frick I was tired when I posted that. I actually meant j.2b.  When I use it the hitbox always seems to change. Theres been times where I've been standing right infront of them and it hits and sometimes I have to be literally over top of them for it to hit. Its a very odd move but very good for ambiguous crossups. I've been doing 236A > j.2b >  214A > j.5b > j.5A > j4A and then j.2B occasionally when they air tech, its been working on some people so far. Not sure if its really worth the damage though!

[Aloci]

As far as I know, there are no good pictures of any of Amane's hitboxes. I can say for certain that the hitboxes on all of his C normals are much bigger than they would lead you to believe. I am pretty sure that all of them go well past where the knot at the end shows, mostly out past/above/below/side of the knot and not behind because he has the blind spots on all of them.

I keep getting surprised by just how far back the hitbox on 5C goes.

[Cynthetik]

Oh frick I was tired when I posted that. I actually meant j.2b.  When I use it the hitbox always seems to change. Theres been times where I've been standing right infront of them and it hits and sometimes I have to be literally over top of them for it to hit. Its a very odd move but very good for ambiguous crossups. I've been doing 236A > j.2b >  214A > j.5b > j.5A > j4A and then j.2B occasionally when they air tech, its been working on some people so far. Not sure if its really worth the damage though!

 

j.2B has a pretty tall hitbox, I have hit people when they were above Amane because they stuck out a limb in the air. As for the times when it will hit in front and other times it will wiff, when you force someone to block, their hitbox actually changes. The blocking hitbox (especially crouch blocking) is much bigger than a normal hitbox. It's what allows character like Rachel to do her instant j.A overheads and such. So if you can get the opponent to block, j.2B is very good. Something like 236A > j.B > j.A(1) > j2B is great because the opponent can't crouch under the j.A and the j2B will connect allowing for an easy follow up.

[Aloci]

Friendly reminder:

 

Since we have a few new faces popping up on the Amane boards, I just want to remind everyone that we've got an Amane Skype Group and it's totally fabulous.

If you'd like to join feel free to contact either myself or DerQ I guess. Our Skype handles are in our profiles.

[Skoogabear]

Oh wow yeah that actually really works awesomely. Even if they block it it still puts you at an advantage with that +8 on block. Sorry I've ben asking a lot of questions, I really do want to learn amane and I almost always online just barely lose to things that I could avoid if I was a bit calmer. I kind of panic once I hit half health with Amane and dont know what to do at that point and have been very hesitent to use meter at all with him. Half of my matches I dont even use it because I dont know wether to save it or spend it on RCs when I musclememory a Raibu at the end of a blockstring. One last question [hopefully for now]. What is a good setup for Hariken and A/B/C follow ups? I've been doing things like..5B > 2B > 3C >236D~A and it seems to work on Oki. Late rolling out leaves you safe if they roll forward, you'll just have to know when to bait them if they roll back and followup with a B instead.

[DerQ]

Check Eshi's thread. It's not specifically about Hariken setups, but them and 6D setups

 

And it's not so much calling one drill or the other to bait rolls. It's more doing the setup until the other player proves he can escape it IMO

 

As for meter usage, if you're unsure of how to spend it, I'd say at least use it for counter assaults for now. Good habit to use them now and then.

[Cynthetik]

DerQ is right with the Counter Assaults, it is one of Amane's best ways to use meter because he lacks a reversal other than his super. Other ways you can use meter are:

 

- 5D > RC > 5D. This is probably Amane's most basic use of meter for RC. On block, can potentially get a CH on the second 5D which leads to guaranteed level 3 drill. If you are already at level 3 drill, it's a very basic way to get more chip damage if the opponent is not barrier blocking (or if they are, eats away at their barrier).

 

- Use CT when an opponent is blocking a Hariken drill in the corner. Can easily catch someone off guard and get a free corner combo or if its blocked, takes off a good chunk of their barrier.

 

- RC a random Gosei on block or on hit. On block it makes the Gosei safe and potentially catch the opponent with a frame trap using 2A/2B. On hit it can be converted into a combo with a 2C follow up. (NOTE: Hard to do. Can also 6D afterwards for a level 3 drill if Gosei catches someone out of the air and you RC immediately).

 

- RC a j.2B to keep pressure going, really useful if you already did j.2B > fabhop > j.2B and it was blocked.

[Skullrama]

Having recently picked up the game and started playing Amane, I could use some advice for dealing with rushdown. Now, I'm perfectly willing to admit that I'm probably just bad at BlazBlue, but when facing certain characters (Notably Makoto, sometimes Kagura and others) once they force me to block, it seems like the block strings go on forever. Even when I succesfully block the mixups, they seem to be able to repeat the same string over and over without any obvious gaps for retaliation until I screw up.

 

I know there has to be a gap somewhere, so I occasionally try to throw an attack where I think there ought to be a gap (typically either a 2A or, if they're a little far, a 5B).The results of these attempts can be broken down thusly: About half the time I eat a combo for having the audacity to press a button. 30% of the time the block string actually pushed them juuuuust outside the range of 5B, so I whiff then eat a combo (Tends to happen with Noel and Litchi) . Maybe 20% of the time I actually hit them, but I'm so suprised it worked that I fail to capitalize on it meaningfully.

 

So, I'm sure there has to be a better way to deal with this, I'm just not using Amane's tools effectively. Any thoughts?

 

On a related note, I seem to have a hell of a time even touching a halfway decent Rachael. This is not news to anyone, I'm sure, but suggestions for this would also be appreciated.

[Skoogabear]

Now im pretty new to using Amane myself but from what I've learned you just need to find small gaps in their blockstrings and fabhop our jump out. Attempting to hit back will just ending up with you stuck in a counter-hit string and make you take on even more damage at a time. To be quite honest any time I end up in the corner I am stuck in the same boat unless I have 50 meter. Amane really doesnt have any good defensive options once he's stuck there. Watching a good chunk of online play too most of them wait until they see the blockstring has finished and jump and or fabhop out of there and to for a j.B or j.2b to make sure their move out of the corner is at least somewhat safe. 

 

I may just be spewing nonsense though, I'd love to hear what others have to say too cause being in the corner with Amane sucks. I try my best to just avoid the corners especially against Hazmas and Noels. 

[DerQ]

Trying to press buttons is a bigger risk on this character when blocking. 2A has a short range, other normals are rather slow in startup/reach. His reversal is really good, but meter. 

 

On the defensive, Amane is more easily rewarded from attempting to gtfo than mashing out:

- Backdashing. Currently, Amane's backdash is ok and it might be somewhat buffed in the next version

- Jumping. With all the air movement options and his floaty high jump, just jumping and using one movement option can force the other player to commit in following you to catch you. Keeping another air option (Fabhop, double jump) can also help you on the way down. If cornered, jump double jump B hop forward at least gets you out of the corner

- 6B beats throws from frame 1. It's also invincible to attacks with foot property (usually lows) on frame 5. A big commitment, but good rewards. If the gap is large enough for it to whiff, you pull backwards which helps slightly

 

Nonetheless, he remains weak so instead learn to make good use of game mechanics/rules, they go a long way:

- Mixing up the time at which you tech during combos and utilizing rolls. It helps get out of certain setups, it's annoying, it works wonders against many players, it's good when used appropriately.

- Barrier/IB. Helps messing up their spacing

- Typically, blazblue mixups have a gap before the mixup. This does not apply universally, but there's a lot of escapable situations thanks to this. Enough to upback or do something annoying and work from there.

- Counter assaults. Amane has a good one.

[Skullrama]

I had completely forgotten that counterassaults were even a thing. Thanks for all the good information; remembering to do some of this stuff will definitely help me not get completely stomped whenever the momentum turns against me.

[Cynthetik]

Having recently picked up the game and started playing Amane, I could use some advice for dealing with rushdown. Now, I'm perfectly willing to admit that I'm probably just bad at BlazBlue, but when facing certain characters (Notably Makoto, sometimes Kagura and others) once they force me to block, it seems like the block strings go on forever. Even when I succesfully block the mixups, they seem to be able to repeat the same string over and over without any obvious gaps for retaliation until I screw up.

 

I know there has to be a gap somewhere, so I occasionally try to throw an attack where I think there ought to be a gap (typically either a 2A or, if they're a little far, a 5B).The results of these attempts can be broken down thusly: About half the time I eat a combo for having the audacity to press a button. 30% of the time the block string actually pushed them juuuuust outside the range of 5B, so I whiff then eat a combo (Tends to happen with Noel and Litchi) . Maybe 20% of the time I actually hit them, but I'm so suprised it worked that I fail to capitalize on it meaningfully.

 

So, I'm sure there has to be a better way to deal with this, I'm just not using Amane's tools effectively. Any thoughts?

 

On a related note, I seem to have a hell of a time even touching a halfway decent Rachael. This is not news to anyone, I'm sure, but suggestions for this would also be appreciated.

 

In the match ups against heavy rushdown, you have to pretend Amane doesn't really have a C button. Especially if the opponent is always running or airdashing at you. To handle these situations, take note on how the opponent is attempting to get in on you.

 

6A and 5A are really strong anti airs against low airdashes and can easily set up a zoning game once you knock them back with a combo or you could go for a drill set up. Other options against airdashes are j.A and air throw to beat out most of the opponents jump in normals. 3C is strong against people who are dashing in on Amane and its even better if you get good at Hariken Stance cancelling it because it makes it safe and can still confirm off of a counter hit. 214A/B > j.B is also a strong option if the opponent is constantly running at you. 5B is good for handling both situations once you know the spacing better, it has both a good vertical and horizontal hitbox, its air unblockable unless they barrier block (which is good because it pushes them out that way), and can be Hariken Stance cancelled on block. Once you have the opponent respecting your options to stop them from getting in, you will have your C button back.

 

When on the defense, Amane doesn't have any real tools to get him out so blocking is our only real option unless you have meter. If you have 50 meter, counter-assault (6A+B) is a very useful way to spend meter and is Amane's best defensive tool. If you don't have meter, look for gaps in the opponents block string and jump out (you will want to jump back > barrier block in case of an air unblockable attack). Once you are in the air, you have more options to escape (double-jump, fabhops, airdashes, etc). Take note though, if you jump out too much the opponent might catch on and start doing frame traps to catch jump animations or air grabs to catch you off guard. Don't try to mash out during block strings! Amane's normals have too much start up to really be doing that. Only press a button when you know it will beat out a move. (i.e. 6A/5A/5B will beat out Hazama's 214D~A)

 

As for the Rachel match up, I will give some quick advice:

 

Rachel is one of Amane's worst match ups. Against a zoning Rachel, play patient try to poke her with C normals during the start up of her projectiles. Use your fabhops to get around the obstacle course she creates. If the Rachel decides to rushdown, I hope you have good blocking because it becomes a lot of guessing lol. You can't really do fabhop pressure in this match up because Rachel's 6A is really good at stopping Amane for attempting his pressure game. Be cautious of her wind as she can use it to wind-tech to escape all drill set ups or meaty 2C attempts and she can use it as a way to disrupt your movement when you fabhop. Try to save meter for counter-assault.

[Eshi]

if you're having trouble with shitty rushdown characters - Instant Block Barrier. The pushback is extremely good and completely fucks characters like Makoto and Tsubaki.

[Skoogabear]

So I've been implimenting 3C > 236D~A more for block setups. At that point I dont know what to do. I've been going for 5D just because it chalks up a good amount of drill meter and a lot of people forget to go for barrier till last second leaving them with a good amount of chip already. I've been trying to set up 6Ds but a lot of the time they end up just enough behind the opponent to not connect or I'll take too long to move and wont get a 6D out at all and end up at a bad spot. What are some good ways to go in for this kind of thing? Guard crush perhaps?

[TD]

You can crossup with IAD J2b as the drill active frames end. It's a lot quicker if they are in the full blockstun.

Ct is ok, it should be covered by the blockstun, but unless it's level 3 you'll have to be really close for full coverage. There is also the risk of drill auto dropping your combo if it's done too early- you'll have to experiment with this yourself.

Empty low works. A zettou should do the trick and then you just land and 2b. Ja is not really recommended, you're not getting much, but it is some form of mixup.

I suppose d could work here, but it just isn't worth it at level 1, but absolutely at level 2 especially when on the higher end of the meter. Use your best judgement on drill meter at level 3. If the goal is to eat barrier, or it's for the kill, any drill would work, but again, level 1 is too situational to be of much use.

On hit, use a launcher to confirm a longer combo. J2b is best. 3c if the foe is hit in the beginning frames.

Keep in mind that no matter what, if the drill hits them you will not get a very damaging combo, somewhat limiting use of ct. It is the best time to go for extra heat, corner carry, and/or another oki setup.

[Eshi]

I just hold back and then 6D. The 6D should connect unless they're practically on top of you. I like the idea of running up and doing a j2B cross-up, that way if they get hit by the drill you can easily hit confirm. My favorite mix-up is B Zettou > IAD back j2B for a fake cross-up. Works like a charm. 

[Splack-Reflux]

Got the game today. Picked Amane.

 

That moment you realize you don't have an overhead/high attack >.< and throw range is trash.

Makes you realize what you should be trying to do. That chip! The concept is promising at least...opponent will open themselves up when they can no longer block.

 

I just hold back and then 6D. The 6D should connect unless they're practically on top of you. I like the idea of running up and doing a j2B cross-up, that way if they get hit by the drill you can easily hit confirm. My favorite mix-up is B Zettou > IAD back j2B for a fake cross-up. Works like a charm. 

 

Need practice doing this. Can hardly combo off crossus with this character.

[TD]

I wanted to include 6d but my testing kinda made it a ghetto setup that can definitely be gotten out of, which is back dash 6d. Admittedly I did not think of that [4] 6d setup, which sounds like a great way to get it as a true blockstring.

Same with the double crossup, this is a perfect time to do it, I was beginning to give up on the concept because it was hard to pinpoint the perfect time to do it. (Though my first priority is almost always 6d anyway, so it never really came up until very recently.) great ideas. There are probably more crossup shenans with j2c.

At splack, amane is more pressure oriented, he's more of tricking the foe into thinking he'll be unsafe, pushing them out of range for a c normal or doing zettou as a mixup. Done enough, it can put a ton of weight on the foe. Ultimately his pressure serves not only to bait the foe, but to deplete their barrier gauge so that he can utilize all his drills. The faster he gets to level 3 the better, except against experienced specialists you'll have to do very ghetto setups that could fail. His worst feature IMO is that he is, if not more, unforgiving than Rachel, who also can't miss a beat, but in most cases he has higher risk and lower reward. On a good day he can get the level 3 quickly and end the match just as fast, something rachel takes forever to do, but with 1000x more security once she knocks you down. I also never played a girly man before, and it is a rather interesting experience.

[Eshi]

hey guys I'm bored so lets talk about amane match-up numbers, I want to know what y'all think!

 

6-4: BU, CA, TG, KA

5-5: AR, AZ, IZ, MA, MU, NO, NU, PL, RG, RE, TE, TS, VA

4-6: BA, HK, HZ, JI, LI, RC, TK

3-7: KO

 

I'm still pretty unsure about these match-ups -

Kagura: debating between 5-5 and 6-4. Kagura sucks and our runaway is great but his DP is really fucking annoying, 5C only hits once on standing and he tends to hit really hard
Jin: a couple of y'all know I've been despairing a lot about him recently. I've been playing long sets and can't do shit against our local player. The only time I feel like I'm allowed to play is full screen with C zoning, and even then his dash low profiles 5C. jC shuts down our air footsies, his ground footsies are better, his pressure is GODLIKE against us, Amane is literally the only character that can't OS block 623C because A attacks have so much recovery and we can't even do TK j2B safe jump once he has 50 meter.  I'm debating dropping him down to 7-3.

[Kiba]

hey guys I'm bored so lets talk about amane match-up numbers, I want to know what y'all think!

5-5: VA

 

What's the reasoning behind this?

[Narroo]

According to the tutorials, Amane can steal health from his opponents via chip damage.  Hm, never heard that one.....

[Cynthetik]

What's the reasoning behind this?

 

Amane can keep Valk out pretty easily when he is wolf form as long as he plays smart since Valk cannot block and Amane has full screen normals. j.B is pretty hard for him to deal with cause it has farther range than w[5B] and usually beats it clean. 6A is also a really good AA for dealing with Valk. At neutral, Amane has the upper hand.

[TD]

He can keep valk out. Not forever and he is screwed if he gets caught, as in, he probably lost like vs tager. Everything cynthetik said, plus movement is pretty good to fall back on to get around. He plays a lot like a permanent staffed litchi with a fabhop; usually, if amane gets hit in neutral it should be because he screwed up his reaction time or he didn't choose the right poke. Valk doesn't want to stay back so he is taking a risk every time he uses wolf to get in. I'm not counting old man hop in human mode.

This is of course assuming both players are on equal skill plateaus.

Valk also has trouble vs drill setups and no strong defense of his own, he could lose just as likely as amane if he allows the scarfed warrior to get his level 3 drill early on. Besides these points, midrange goes more to human valk, while faraway will almost always go to amane, and momentum for whoever gets that hit. At least valk has 6a, we don't have shit, so we'll lose more definitely than he with all those mixups.

Jin is hard, lots of running, bit I wouldn't call it 7-3. It is most certainly disadvantageous though.

[Eshi]

What's the reasoning behind this?

you and LK won't pick him with me </3

 

but really, he's one of the only top tiers I feel Amane goes even with in neutral. Valk mixup is insane and melts through Amane, but Valk's defense is also really bad and most 6D setups work on him so Amane can melt him really fast too. Valk is at a slight advantage overall, but IMO not enough to put at 6-4 and I didn't want to nitpick decimals. Every character I put at 6-4 advantage I feel cleanly beats Amane in neutral - especially in the air - which forces him to rely on his underwhelming ground footsies and rushdown.