[CP] Amane Nishiki Gameplay Discussion

[Xenozip]

What are the best/practical uses for Amane's crush trigger, if any?

[Eshi]

What are the best/practical uses for Amane's crush trigger, if any?

air juggle > crush trigger > Hariken A or 6D

inescapable level 3 setup on most of the cast if they don't have 50 meter

 

if you're REALLY ballsy and land it as a mix-up, the best confirm is dash j2B into an air juggle

[DerQ]

3C CH > Crush trigger punishes for 4.4k and knockdown

Hariken oki > Crush trigger > RC > 5D for a "Legit" guard crush

It's ballsy and low reward, but players who are used to Amane don't tend to barrier as much and there are times where you are point blank during pressure/mixups/knockdown. 236A/B > j.B > j.a (optionnal) > Ground normal (optionnal) > CT in pressure or anytime you get them to block j.2B. Just need an opponent that will let you do it and have the corner to get actual rewards from this

[Xenozip]

Thank you.

 

Also, a little input trick for instant j.2B, you can press and hold the B way earlier than you might think you need to, in fact in training mode you can see that you're able to press j9~B at basically the same time then slide the movement to 3 after pressing B, and j.2B will still come out. Training mode input display shows like:

(shown: 69B63)

And it comes out instant j.2B (instead of j.5B)

[DerQ]

That's a really nice thing. Thanks for sharing, still need to make the stick inputs fast enough though

 

Wonder what exactly explains why this is possible

[DerQ]

Decided to start brushing up a lot of basics that were driven from assumptions. That's starting with midscreen knockdowns from 236C and j.236C and where to go from there. Original assumption was just to try and time 2C for the desired guess (tech, delay, forward, back, quick) or dash > 236A/B > j.B, more specifically timing 2C.

 

Turns out you don't need to guess too much and acquire information on your opponent's tech tendencies and/or condition them if they don't know

 

After both specials, doing 2C ASAP will catch any delayed tech in a bluebeat. This negates roll attempts, delayed tech, quick tech. 2C will whiff if they emergency tech. You know now they emergency tech. Before I get on to that though. This is after a 236C standing confirm.

• 2B > 3C > 236C > Bluebeat 2C(1) > 5C(1) > 6C(2) > 6A > j.B > j.B > j.2C > j.236C Allows for a knockdown. Red beat does 1.6k, blue beat raises this to 3.3k
• 2A > 2B > 3C > 236C > 2C(1) > 623C Red beat does 1.5k, blue beat raises to 2.4k
• 2C > 3C > 2C(1) > 623C Red beat does 1.7k Blue beat raises to 2.8k
• Hit confirming with more than one 2A doesn't allow to combo into 623C, hitconfirming 2C > 5C > 3C does the same. 2A > 5B > 3C works though
• If you reacted to 3C before doing Raibu, backroll becomes an option. You want to hit them while they're high enough after 3C so they don't touch the ground before you recover. Your hitconfirm has to happen before 3C. For instance, if you get air hit 5C > 236C, it becomes easier to confirm and works on characters against who this doesn't work.
• 236C > Bluebeat 2C(1) > 5C will drop on only Rachel and bullet.
• Just input followups, if 2C whiffs, none of it comes out

I havn't tried to find combo routes from j.236C > 2C bluebeat. Shorter combos can always lead to 2C(1) > 623C. This would only condition a player or give you info about their tendencies. Some routes give knockdown and do as much damage in red beat. If you do a j.236C at neutral and you have 50 to make it safe, you may try to catch a delayed tech and keep the meter for the same combo. Gimmicky gambles

 

Once they do start teching, possibilities open up:

• You can micro dash 2C and it'll meaty an emergency tech, catch a forward roll, quick tech. Against certain characters, I could time the distance and 2C to also catch a back roll on the 2nd hit of 2C. This is untested against every character. The distance they'll land after 236C varies a bit. Had it working on Ragna iirc, tested someone else and never got it.
• You can hit confirm the followup in 5C and adjust from there.
• Back roll and late tech beats this, but isn't unsafe
• Wakeup reversals can come into play as well as backdashes. You can always alter timings if you want to catch one option over the other, hitconfirm remains the same.

If you get bluebeat combos going and they add 1k to 1.5k extra damage, they'll most likely want to guess their what tech option to go for or tech differently on the same combo routes. If you condition someone the right way, you should get some nice opportunities for drill setups/resets like j.236C > RC > 6D

 

Downsides

• I didn't factor corner carry in this. It may or may not help depending on the combo route followups. Juggling 2C > 5C > 6C(2) depending on the distance can lead you to a route that would lose or trade corner carry for dmg
• Untested in matches
• May be incomplete, need to test a few more stuff like backdashes and what not. I'll also preaf rood the post sometime again and may tweak a few things

[Eshi]

I love your ideas about blue beating 2C after Raibu! I took it to training mode a couple of weeks ago and figured out that Zettou is a mediocre option, Raibu knocks them so far away that back roll is still unpunishable even with a dash buffer. 2C is definitely the option I want for conditioning emergency tech.

 

j236C does not have the same problem though, knockback is close 95% of the time so dash zettou > jB > 5B always beats roll and hit confirms for over 3k. I always do that for oki. It should be noted that some characters have thin hitboxes (kokonoe, noel etc) and they require hitting with very few hits of jB/5B or else they will drop out.

[DerQ]

The only problem I see with 2C and trying to condition an emergency tech is that someone smart will more than likely change their tech habits only on the setup he recognized. If I get hit by 2C bluebeat, I'll only change my habit the next time I see the exact same combo. But from Raibu... I doubt you could have some rapid + drill stuff going on or that you can get anything more than meaty 2C/catch forward rolls. I'll have to test it out, it's more of a prediction based on how the move works.

You do get it after Gosei since RC into 6D works against emergency tech

[DerQ]

In followup to my post yesterday, if you condition an opponent to emergency tech this knockdown. Dashing up 2C after Raibu is nice. Across all the cast, it'll beat forward, quick getup, emergency (Gives meaty on the 2nd hit). It will lose to no tech and reversal options (Which I need to test). Against some characters, it is possible to even cover back rolls. It'll lose to delayed rolls though. The list below was made from one recording (Bang). That means with one timing to learn, it'll work on all 14 characters below

 

Bang, Makoto, Tao, Hakumen, Ragna, Tager, Azrael, Amane, Jin, Arakune, Tsubaki, Rachel (Beats backwind back roll, loses to forward wind), Kokonoe, Platinum

 

This may be possible against the other characters as well, but the timing would be different. Either that or you can't cover both back and forward rolls. I didn't test this, but I'd learn this timing because it still covers emergency tech, forward rolls and quick tech. Learning a different walk distance for maybe a few of the 12 missing characters would be hard to get consistently. That or I would think just do something else (Hariken stance) if you REALLY want to call back rolls

 

As for wake up options, I don't know which back dash this may or may not cover. It covers upback. I'll have to test reversals so we know stuff like "Bang has 50, too risky". This may seem obvious, but since you'll meaty 2C, you can do stuff like use super against wakeup 2D from Noel. You recover in time.

 

The followup combo will always be to input 5C and react from there with 6C or 3C/5D if this is a standing confirm.

 

That's all for today, I'll go test this stuff in matches

[Xenozip]

I just love that 2C is like a projectile basically so it limits a lot of reversal options, since it's not hittable where the attack is and no grabs will work at that range either.

 

Also while fumbling around, I noticed that at that range after the micro dash, if they block the 2C and then try to jump out and get tagged by 5C in the air, you can link a 5B without having to do a Hariken stance cancel or anything. Actually I really like how 5C links into 2B/5B on the ground in general, but I also think it's handy in this situation for hitconfirming airborne hits (because it's a link). So it's like 2C (blocked) 5C (hits airborne) 5B 5C 6C 6A j.B dj.B Gosei. They will be able to airtech the Gosei due to prorate, but the airtech point is very near to the ground. Alternately you can do 2C (blocked) 5C (hits) link 5B 5C 6C(1) Hariken cancel 5B 5D for a knockdown but you lose a good chunk of damage. And then 2C 5C is risky but you can make them respect by doing 2C 5D instead or Zettou shenanigans.

[Cynthetik]

I have been using this 2C blue beat stuff for a while now and it's really good for "training" your opponent to do things you want them to do. It also allows you to recognize what their wake up tendencies are as long as you pay attention during 2C's long animation. The only downfall I have had with using this is that it is easy to find yourself auto piloting and some characters can simply Emergency Tech > Reversal Super to punished the 2C (i.e. Ragna, Hakumen, Jin, etc). To avoid this, simply pay attention to the opponents meter and be wary of doing this when they have 50 meter or try to bait out supers via Hariken Cancels or dashes. 

[Eshi]

I've done some experimenting and the 2C setup is actually way stronger than DerQ's tests have shown. There's a sweetspot timing after Raibu where Microdash 2C A) Bluebeats every tech except emergency tech B) hits meaty on emergency tech and C) 2C > 5C or 6C works on everybody, including Bullet and Rachel. It literally covers every option, however I can't find a series of inputs that will cover all hit confirmation situations yet. I'm going to practice different things on randomized wake-up and see what I can find.

 

EDIT: Nevermind, it's actually incredibly easy to react to which tech the opponent has input and select the correct follow-up. This is fantastic!

[Eshi]

I just found out something else that seems really useful, a mid-combo safejump. If you hit someone standing with 2C > 5C and the spacing is correct, you can continue with A Zettou > jB [1] > jA [1] > j2B. The combo ends at jA, but the j2B has the perfect timing to beat mashing (tested vs. Ragna's 5 frame 5A), safe jumps almost all reversals (beats inferno divider, loses to jayoku houtenjin), and is at least +12 on block (tested with j2B > 2B, could not reversal without instant block).

[DerQ]

I don't speak much moonrunes, but hey Amane stuff? Please confirm 5D is special cancel on block!!!

 

https://twitter.com/tkrnsan/status/497176355918725120

https://twitter.com/tkrnsan/status/497178218978217984

[Kikirin]

The second one mentions being able to special cancel 5D on block, yes.

 

Not completely sure on this part, but it kinda sounds like they added an attack hitbox to Amane's foot when he's setting the Hariken drill. Part of that second tweet might be mentioning some of its properties.

[DerQ]

Cool shit http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=124288358

Hariken one hit?????????

[DerQ]

remember though, this shit remains a loctest

[TD]

Seems our fabulous fruitcake will be getting some buffs~

Interesting buffs indeed. Hitboxes on hariken followups sound fun. I always thought he needed a plan b to the stance. A kick doesn't quite cut it and seems more like a "win more" buff, but it hasn't been seen yet and who knows what it could mean.

5d sounds legit now, no more having to give up pressure using it. I wonder how level 3 is going to be affected now that 5d level 3 somehow died.

We could use some c normal buffs. Maybe better hitboxes or less recovery or easier hitconfirming. In fact, we could use quite a few things, but let's see what they give us to work with

[DerQ]

5D nerf was apparently a joke https://twitter.com/tkrnsan/status/497200853573328896

[Kikirin]

Which part of it was the joke? I think there was also mention of 5D's pushback on barrier guard being pretty extreme as to prevent 5d > RC > 5d from working.

[DerQ]

He posted a wrong statement and made an hyperbole about the character sucking. The most basic 101 false statement joke exaggeration just like Rachel losing EVERYTHING was a joke.

That'd be a good thing if 5D > RC > 5D had too mush pushback. In the build, you can special cancel the thing... Fabhop goes further than 5D's initial forward momentum.

[TagAnarchy]

As long as level 3 drill does egregious amounts of damage on block, we're still good.

[TagAnarchy]

I'd also very much like a bit more pushback. It'll keep the pressure safe.

[DerQ]

It already is safe.... drill is +3 on lvl 3.... More push back just puts you closer to either C normal range. Currently, being out of 5D range is the dead zone where only micro dash attacks or 5D will reach...

[TD]

Tapping 5d prevents this problem if only slightly, and doesn't give the lv3 chip, but does provide a sort of strike/strike longer mixup with plus frames.