[CPEX] Relius Clover Gameplay Discussion

[Poultrygeist]

The closest to a reversal we have would just be counter assault.  TBH if Relius had good defensive options on top of his incredible offense we might be giving Kokopuffs a run for her money lol.

[NecroTheReaper]

Indeed. Though it'd still be nice if either 2C or Vinum got a hitbox buff. Most people that have a reversal DD have both a good range and give respectable damage. Here we are burning 50 heat for either a 3k damage at most (OD+another 50 heat) combo or setup into UB (which isn't bad, but that ignis cost man). I think it just bothers me that all of Relius' options save CA's are better saved for baiting and glitch setups xD

[Myoro]

Indeed. Though it'd still be nice if either 2C or Vinum got a hitbox buff. Most people that have a reversal DD have both a good range and give respectable damage. Here we are burning 50 heat for either a 3k damage at most (OD+another 50 heat) combo or setup into UB (which isn't bad, but that ignis cost man). I think it just bothers me that all of Relius' options save CA's are better saved for baiting and glitch setups xD

 

Vinum gives you time to summon Ignis and then use 236D which costs very little if she's out. And if you're in the corner you can just jump over them and do 236C->214A->2C->6C->22A->4D->3C->unblockable setup.

[NecroTheReaper]

Yeah, I know. The point is that its a DD that's generally bad. Like 350 minimum damage, awful range, crap reward by itself (imagine having a low blue bar ignis meter xD). It could stand to have at least a vertical reach buff without making Relius broken, especially with our backdash becoming vrap in the patch.

Edit: so, just curious, anyone miss Ex 214C and its braindead oki? I miss just 3C>214C and beating out almodt all options with that.

[Tsukahara]

Hey all, I'm might be changing mains to Relius so I've been lurking around here the past couple weeks, figured I would say hi.

 

I just had a quick OD question. If Relius activates OD off of an ignis confirm like 2d or 4d, is it counted as OD cancelling? Or as neutral OD as he is free to move?

[Myoro]

Yeah, I know. The point is that its a DD that's generally bad. Like 350 minimum damage, awful range, crap reward by itself (imagine having a low blue bar ignis meter xD). It could stand to have at least a vertical reach buff without making Relius broken, especially with our backdash becoming vrap in the patch.

Edit: so, just curious, anyone miss Ex 214C and its braindead oki? I miss just 3C>214C and beating out almodt all options with that.

I never much cared for CSE 214C. However I was madly in love with CSE 214A

 

Hey all, I'm might be changing mains to Relius so I've been lurking around here the past couple weeks, figured I would say hi.

 

I just had a quick OD question. If Relius activates OD off of an ignis confirm like 2d or 4d, is it counted as OD cancelling? Or as neutral OD as he is free to move?

As long as Relius himself isn't canceling the recovery of a move it's normal OD.

[NecroTheReaper]

I just liked it because there wasn't all this iffy timing. If you recovered fast enough to just hit 214C when they emergency teched to block dp's and mashing, I wouldn't mind, but havin all these specific timings to cover certain wakeup options... its a hassle and I'm lazy xP xD

And yeah, you can go into OD while ignis is doing a normal without it being an OD cancel, though typically your hitstun will vanish if you do it as its hitting. Usually if you want to go OD, I'd say go for 3C jump cancel OD. Good for combos and keeps you relatively safe otherwise.

Edit: so does anyone have an OS (as non-optimal as it may be) for a 2C hit or FC? I can only confirm FC 2C AA combos by accident. Half the time, I just confirm into 6C since I'd like to get a combo even if it didn't hit

[Angry Guy of DE]

As far as AA FC 2C you can generally visually confirm it on hit to either Summon Ignis if she isn't out or 236A to shorten the recovery from 2C.  It's like Kagura's 6C normal hit vs. CH, you can confirm what to do if it actually CH'd.
If it is a 2C AA that failed to CH then you can still 6C depending on height to confirm from it.  If they block both and Ignis isn't too low on meter you can 214A to make it safe and pressure.
On ground hit 2C FC...eh...I guess you could still follow non-FC AA 2C with 2C > 6C > 214A since ground 2C FC combos options are 41236B or Summon Ignis > 5B > 6D.


 

[Myoro]

214A would also work on ground FC2C so really it works on all FCs

 

2C is kind of a nuisance cuz it needs to get confirmed 5 different ways to be optimal. Let's let AH=Air hit and GH=grounded hit

 

AHFC2C needs ether a dash 5C or 2C or Tus (if that's what your into)

 

GHFC2C needs 5D cancel->665B/66B or 5A+B to connect optimally

 

AH2C needs short delay 6C

 

GH2C and blocked GH2C needs 3C

 

and blocked AH2C needs delayed 3C

 

But all of this can be easy mode-ed and confirmed into 214A to at least get them blocking at the cost of a ton of Ignis meter and your Sayan pride.

 

Now I've got questions of my own, what's the most damage off of AHFC2C Relius can do without confirming into Tus? also what kind of FC corner combos do we have? I've just been confirming into my normal routes. In fact, I haven't really used the FC property for more than getting 5C->2C->6C->41236B to work and for solo 6B->j.B->j.C->2C->6C->41236B shenanigans. Does it actually let us get damage that we couldn't get before?

[Angry Guy of DE]

Let's see if I remember from some combo video...

 

I think it was from AH FC 2C it went:

 

2C > 5D (summon Ignis or 236A for led lay) > 5B (dash depending on space) > 2C > 6C > 214B > 3C > 41236B > 5B > 5C (2) > jc j.B > j.C > j.236C~214B.
 

I think it does around 3.4K
 

I think this is the video, its like the second combo or so.
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iD22T2rIxbM&list=FL-H1fgjmEannEvcyK0EuOqw&index=13

 

[NecroTheReaper]

If I could confirm correctly every time, I'd use my FCs to go into j.B>j.C loops. Imo, they're the most efficient form of damage considering its corner carry, ignis cost, and damage. Any FC can go into it (6C/2C/41246B) and if you're in the corner, you can still get 3C oki.. This doesn't changenthe fact that 2C is a pain in the ass to confirm what kind of hit it was.

[Myoro]

Ah thanks Angry Guy! I know what I'm trying when I get home.

 

So far my highest damage has been AHFC2C->665C->2C->6C->41236B->5B->5C->Superjump->j.B->j.C->j.236C~>j.214B for 3100 damage. I wonder if I can replace the 5B for a 5C to get even more from this or maybe put in an extra jump->j.B->j.C->land->6B or something. Other characters get 5000 off a Fatals with much better hit boxes, so I'mma try make this one as worth it as possible.

[TD]

replacing it with 5c into jb jc route is one of, if not his most, optimal 2c combo.

 

honestly, I dont think confirming from 2c is that difficult. The worst part is only whether it is counter hit or not, the rest should be easily discernable with enough practice. 214a is a nice OS to crutch on, but I would recommend just hitconfirming the routes and using your judgement. with ignis out, pretty much all these scenarios are safe for relius.

[NecroTheReaper]

Its only air hit/CH that's getting to me, mostly since ground 2C FC>6C>214A still gives you an -ok- combo. I was just wondering if there was any other confirm for 2C that works for both air hit and CH, but I guess there's not. Comparing it to kagura's AA is pretty much the same, but he can go 6DA for normal hit or 6D>2DA for CH, still seems a bit simpler since.there's not a lot of commitment to his follow up.

[NecroTheReaper]

Sorry for all my double posts (not like we have a lot of people here anyway, but still). Anyone think it'd be a good idea to make an Oki thread to give a thorough layout of all of Relius' oki options and what they beat/lose to?

[Myoro]

Not really too cool an info dump, but one none the less.

 

This is a study of air normals and How/when they should be confirmed in air to air situations. I figure Relius' air game is not the best I've seen so we should get all we can from it.

 

Note#1:These assume four things, that your opponent is in the air with you, that you do not trade blows, that you are currently jumping toward the opponent, and that you and the opponent aren't currently under momentum altering effects like Tager's Magnetism, Rachel's wind or Kokonoe's graviton.

 

Note#2: These are all midscreen scenarios, but the only real difference in confirming corner combos is the presence of "falling 'non A' Air normal->665B->6B->TKj.236C->2C->6C" combos, "Low to the ground air normal-> low to the ground air Lauger->2C->6C" combos and "Air normal->j.236C->214A/4D/6B->whatever" combos. Basically as a rule of thumb if I state that midscreen it can be confirmed in to a ground move use 5B->TK lauger path or low to the ground air lauger paths, if not confirm into 4D/6B/~214A at normal jump height 4D/~214A at super jump height, and just ~j.214A at double superjump height. The only exception to this rule is that  Raw j.236C->5B->2C and j.A/j.B->j.236C->5B->2C work so long as the opponent isn't higher up than you.

 

j.A: Under a normal situation canceling J.A into j.B/j.C->j.236C~>j.214B on j.A's first or sixth hit is best. If you are too close to the ground be sure to cancel straight into 236C as j.B and j.C will not stop your falling and your opponent will go free.

 

Counter hit J.A: Rising Counterhit J.A is no different on Rising hit, around mid jump and on falling it can be confirmed into 6B->superjump->j.B->j.C->j.236C~>j.214B for more damage, if you're at midjump you can do 66B->jump nine direction to cross them up. when you're extremely close to the ground and the opponent's close enough for j.A to hit, j.A (one hit) can confirm into 2C->6C->41236B->3C for 3C Oki and 1800ish damage or 2C->6C->41236B->5B->5C(one hit)->superjump->j.B->j.C->j.236C~>j.214B->airdash for 2700ish damage.

 

J.B: typically this is confirmed into j.C if you are higher up than them/236C if you're lower than them. on falling j.B you can confirm into 2C for a full combo, for about 3000 damage but if the opponent is extremely close to the ground you can use 5B->2C if you'll land first. in almost all situations, If it coulda confirmed into 6B, you cold have confirmed it into 5B->2C/2C for way more damage. 

 

Counter hit J.B: Proving once again why it's our main Relius air to air for a reason, it can confirm from any mid jump or falling scenario into 3000 damage with ease. On rising counterhit, if you can manage to confirm it properly, you can use j.A right as you reach the end of a normal jump and use 2C->6C at you touch the ground for a full combo for roughly 2800 damage. Rising superjump CHj.B can be comboed into another j.B then 2C->6C->full combo, which looks really cool. at mid superjump or double jump counter hit you usually have to dash 5B to reach the opponent and combo. Falling CHj.B is really easy to confirm into 5B->2C->6C for a full combo.

 

J.C: This one gives you the least options, You can only really combo into 5B/2C/6B on falling j.C. j.C makes the opponent go upwards so there will be times you'll have to confirm into 6B sadly. (This will usually happen if the opponent is at your altitude or higher. For rising/mid superjump, j.236C/j.8D->j.236C is the only solution, but no sane man would use j.C rising. mid jump you can do j.C->j.8D->land->superjump->j.B->j.C->236C~>214B->airdash

 

Counterhit J.C: Rising, mid air, and falling Counterhit j.C can all be confirmed into 5B->2C->6C->full combo. On rising superjump it can actually combo only into 236C but mid superjump/falling superjump should be fine for 5B->2C combos. Depending on your opponent's altitude you might have to confirm into 2C or very rarely 66B.

 

I'm not gonna even begin to cover j.XD because there are simply too many variables there. If someone would like to add their two cents in feel free to.

[Myoro]

Side note: I was spamming OD Lanto in training mode and if your back's to the corner and it hits (Off of anything) you can just use it use it twice more times then duck or jump and your opponent will then be in the corner behind you and you can hit them with 3C for oki. It's so lazy, but so beautiful.

 

EDIT:Just remembered you could always do that using 214A->214B->214C and get a full OD combo...

 

Derp.

[NecroTheReaper]

I feel like regular and tk j.236C should get a bit of coverage, though only for MU specific and oki setup purposes. When I say MU specific, its interesting to know that if you're vs a Tager and they're tryin to get you with gadget finger RC grab shenanigans, you can use j.236C after teching his first grab and it'll give you a full combo and almost instant corner carry. Otherwise, tk j.236C is a situational anti-air. You can RC it into an airdash to get a full combo however, which you can either end (if you get to thr corner) with 236C oki or our standard 3C oki. 236C oki is nice against reversal happy characters except maybe Izayoi cuz her reversal super has stupid range. Situational, but nonetheless useful if you ever get these weird situations.

[Myoro]

I wasn't really going over command normals, If you wanna do some cool write ups for our command normals, our ground normals, our Ignis moves, our situational magnetism/wind/gravity shenanigans, our good trades, or our distortions, we could see if we could get a page made out of it all.

 

I'd love to know what exactly what's the optimal confirm in all the situations we're given, and I'm sure other Relius players would too.

[Citizen Snips]

I've been trying to learn this guy but I'm having a lot of consistency issues with his 41236B after 2C 6C. The majority of the time they're too high or too far away and the first hit of it knocks them away instead of pulling them in. It's pretty annoying since dropping it there leaves you in a really bad spot, and I can't figure out what the problem is, so I was wondering if there were any tips to stop this from happening. Is there a specific move to delay, etc?

 

I also noticed "Gad Leis (41236B): Ground bounces and pulls in opponent" in the patch notes. Does this solve the problem entirely?

[NecroTheReaper]

Well, first thing to know is you can delay that string a lot. If they're too high, delay 6C slightly, still a bit high? Delay 41236B slightly. Even further back in the combo, you can delay the j.B after 3C>6D by a bit. And it solves a few problems, but the 2nd hit -can- still wiff if you aren't careful. It.doesnt happen alot, but it can happen in 1.1

[Poultrygeist]

Just wait a little bit after 6C in most cases and you should be fine.  

[NecroTheReaper]

I'm genuinely frustrated by how bad 2C can be at times. Recently, I've had it wiff Ragna's BS and Noel's 2D (and always just... jump forward). Maybe I'm just not usin em right in these matchups, but having no move with a hitbox above Relius gets me killed x.x

[Poultrygeist]

Preaching to the choir bro.  Relius's lack of a good anti air is my number 1 complaint with him, even more than not having a DP or good reversals.  Sometimes I get derp and spam airdashes just to try and air to air someone because I know 2C isn't gonna work as much as it should.  Can we get a hitbox buff on that, seriously.

[Myoro]

I just wish it were head invincible earlier.