[CPEX] Relius Clover Gameplay Discussion

[Elochai]

Looks kinda like I imagined it to. I'm guessing Leith > 3C might work as an ender? Should improve the midscreen oki game at least.

[NecroTheReaper]

Provided you go for oki midscreeb rather than corner carry+damage. Honestly any circumstance I have to use 50 heat for, I feel like I should at least get 3.8k damage out of without ignis. I wonder though if the way it works if they can't tech until they hit the ground for the 2nd time since they won't be so high in the air.

[Myoro]

Provided you go for oki midscreeb rather than corner carry+damage. Honestly any circumstance I have to use 50 heat for, I feel like I should at least get 3.8k damage out of without ignis. I wonder though if the way it works if they can't tech until they hit the ground for the 2nd time since they won't be so high in the air.

Close low air tech? You all know what that means! 4DReset Citayyyyyyyy!

Edited February 15, 2014 by Myoro

[NecroTheReaper]

Ok, so someone brought up a good point that I failed to notice recently (and lately all I do is look at frame data).

One of our changes doesn't make much sense right now, specifically the j.xD buff. Currently it has 100 p1. If it increased, this would be absurd unless the across the board "buff" to air attacks was a "nerf" and this piece of info just keeps it at 100. I wish we could get a p1 of like 105, but its probably not happening xD that's broken as hell. We're not Unlimited Az here. So I think at least one change was misprinted/mistranslated. If its not a proration increase, I could only think it'd be a level increase (which makes more sense but still seems broken). I mean it has 18 frames of blockstun, so it'd be a near gapless mixup attempt coming out of.

[Justice7541]

So I'm getting back into this char after Extend threw me off. Any particularly good mixup routes he has now off his neutral pressure (i.e. 5B 6D/2D > whatever)? I remember his mixup being pretty bad at neutral in Extend, I dunno if they really changed anything that improves it in CP.

[NecroTheReaper]

His mixup is mostly the same, but it works better for reasons unknown to me lol. These are all the various mixups I've used/seen used.

5B>6/2D>6A

5B>6D>crossup j.2D

5B>3C>6D>late IAD j.B>j.C

5B>6D>Crossup j.B

5B>6D>crossup back IAD j.B>5C (if they jump out, becomes crossunder AUB)

3C>j.C>RC>IAD j.B>j.C

3C>j.B>dj.C (corner only fuzzy)

Any empty jump>2B/grab

Then you have lots of frametraps that can be made anywhere with ignis, without ignis here's a few. Most of the ones I use is from 5/6C. Some aren't really frametraps, but I use em for various reasons

5/6C>214A

5/6C>236C

6C>236A (beats dp's)

6C>41236B (use sparingly, gives you a good combo on jump out, frame advantage on block)

Just know that your pressure doesn't really end until you run out of ignis meter, and after thinking about it, its probably better if you wanna extend pressure to dismiss ignis when you have 50% or MORE since if they can tell you don't have ignis, they'll mash on you. Still risky since any ignis dismissal is all based about respect from your opponent.

[Justice7541]

His mixup is mostly the same, but it works better for reasons unknown to me lol. These are all the various mixups I've used/seen used.

5B>6/2D>6A

5B>6D>crossup j.2D

5B>3C>6D>late IAD j.B>j.C

5B>6D>Crossup j.B

5B>6D>crossup back IAD j.B>5C (if they jump out, becomes crossunder AUB)

3C>j.C>RC>IAD j.B>j.C

3C>j.B>dj.C (corner only fuzzy)

Any empty jump>2B/grab

Then you have lots of frametraps that can be made anywhere with ignis, without ignis here's a few. Most of the ones I use is from 5/6C. Some aren't really frametraps, but I use em for various reasons

5/6C>214A

5/6C>236C

6C>236A (beats dp's)

6C>41236B (use sparingly, gives you a good combo on jump out, frame advantage on block)

Just know that your pressure doesn't really end until you run out of ignis meter, and after thinking about it, its probably better if you wanna extend pressure to dismiss ignis when you have 50% or MORE since if they can tell you don't have ignis, they'll mash on you. Still risky since any ignis dismissal is all based about respect from your opponent.

My biggest Relius problem back in Extend was people just turtling on me until Ignis ran out, since his mixup is super slow and obvious. The only way I could really open up their guard was to sneak in unblockables from time to time to scare them into mashing then start trying to bait/frametrap the mashes. Feels a lot like Yukiko in that regard.

[TD]

If your intention is to mix them up endlessly then that is the fallacy. Ignis is more to cover holes in pressure. Because both of the players know this, a halfway decent player is not going to press any buttons at all except jump, dp, Ib, barrier pretty much.

You need to let them know you're not going to use ignis until they start trying to escape. Let her stand by while you do your own unsafe shit, and she won't lose a significant amount of meter. Then when you think the foe will start punishing your random 6c into gad leis, you hit them with a 6d or something. Conversely, you see them getting antsy it's time to do 2d into 6a or whatever.

Mixup is not all about high and low. Pressure plays a huge part as well, and for that reason I believe relius actually has good mixup; he covers all options with ignis out and his pressure can get really tricky to escape consistently.

[NecroTheReaper]

Indeed, TD explained it to me pretty well before. His real mixup is being able to do anything he wants as long as ignis is out (barring dp characters). The ones I posted were basic mixup, but leaving intentional gaps, well if you play as Izayoi too then you should understand that pretty well, just Relius doesn't get punished as hard for it.

[NecroTheReaper]

OK, so here's what I believe the CP 1.1 changes for Rel to be (self traslated, may be wrong)

- Backdash duration 13 frames->22 frames, reduced distance

- Negative Penalty reisistance from 6->4

- j.6/2/8D p1 100->90

- Gad Leis ground bounces on air hit

- Bel Lafino untechable on CH

- OD Duo Bios hitstop reduced (first half down to 2 frames, second half... idk?)

- OD Vol Tedo will now only kill with the 2nd hit... was this an issue? Lol

I'll edit this when someone good at translations posts somethin lol.

[Angry Guy of DE]

If those are his only changes then overall its not bad compared to some of the other changes popular characters so he'll stay strong.

*Imagines picture of Relius giving himself sick high-fives with his robot arms*

[Myoro]

So according to the paragraph above the Relius changes on the official page, if google translate and my ability to decode gibberish are both effective enough to derive truth, it looks like CH Bel Lafino will be combo-able (at least on ground hit.) It looks like they want it to be used as an air to ground attack.

Also The change to Gad Leis shouldn't affect our follow-ups if what they say should be believed. Sad thing about the backdash, but I never used it anyway. But i'm the optomistic sort, so maybe with the increased time we can finally evade some tager command grabs.

Bizarrely enough, I'm exited about the 6->4 negative resistance change, I've never gotten negative resistance in CP, and it felt kinda weird without it.

How much was the hitstop on Duo Bios before?

If those are his only changes then overall its not bad compared to some of the other changes popular characters so he'll stay strong.

*Imagines picture of Relius giving himself sick high-fives with his robot arms*

Some legitimately ill high-fives indeed, I just wish his OD got some of the buffs his son's did.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Myoro

[NecroTheReaper]

Yeah, Relius seems to have gotten a slightly vetter neutral game and is being directed towards more of a rushdown style with the negative penalty and bel lafino changes. Lafino having 100 p1, 92 p2, and status as a N starter means we're gonna be gettin some nice damage off it. Also the fact that its at least +19 on block makes it a slower but more rewarding Agito.

[NecroTheReaper]

So, thinkin back on a lot of my matches vs DP characters, I realized I never go for mixup off a 214C oki. So, if they have a DP, is there any option that gives you somethin to beat rolls WHILE baiting dp's? I can handle neutral/delay/quick getup, since they're still in the corner, but I'm so afraid of eatin DP's and losin my momentum because there's a 1f gap between the 2nd and 3rd hits of 214C (and usually they IB the 2nd hit). Does 2D while blocking on wakeup beat forward roll?

Edit: btw Myoro, backdash change still only has 7 invul frames, and it travels less distance. The second those invul frames end, you're eatin a tager buster if he's in range

Edited March 10, 2014 by NecroTheReaper

[Angry Guy of DE]

Have you ever tested in the corner with combos that end with 3C using j.214B?

I often forget that you can do that move by itself now.

[Myoro]

Edit: btw Myoro, backdash change still only has 7 invul frames, and it travels less distance. The second those invul frames end, you're eatin a tager buster if he's in range

Dang, I was thinking that you couldn't be grabbed out of backdash because while it's active Relius looks airborne and ground grabs don't affect airborne people. I thought the frames would be throw invulnerable, but that's not the case is it?

[NecroTheReaper]

Unlike patch notes for other characters, ours didn't get an imcrease in air time. So far its been specifically said if the air frames were increased, and ours didnt Dx.

[NecroTheReaper]

So someone correct me if I'm wrong, I've been working on ways to mix people up in the corner, and since our j.B>dj.C fuzzy doesn't work all that reliably I was wondering about this. When testing on a block all crouching dummy in the corner, if you hit j.C before you land (really late in the jump) and do a rising j.C after, the AI keeps blocking it. Is this a fuzzy or just the AI being stupid?

[OkiLoki]

Need someone to help confirm this bug. When Relius is under scud punish and Azrael uses 6d j5d or 3d Relius uses Carls soundbites for getting hit.

[NecroTheReaper]

Are you using english or japanese voices and do you have the english or Japanese version of the game?

[OkiLoki]

English voices with the US release of the game.

[NecroTheReaper]

I only have the jp version, which doesn't have this issue oddly enough. Doesn't sound like tok big of a problem though, and it'll probably be fixed by a soft patch eventually. Still, you make it sound like Rel gets hit and goes "Sister!" xD

Edit: btw, whoever edited the relius wiki, I love you xD no longer is it awkward and incomplete.

[Myoro]

Getting hit by Azrael would make me sound like a 12ish year old boy easily. But if that is a thing it should be found by others quite soon. I don't imagine it lasting long tho.

[NecroTheReaper]

So, 2C>6C for best frametrap ever? You get soooo many fc's, and typically people dont react to pressure reset leis afterwards. Sometimes they wvwn get FC'd or AUB'd from it as well.

Anyway, how much blockstun does j.B give? Frame data page has an error of it having the exact same values as j.C. mostly curious since j.B has more active frames and hits crossup plus sets up perfectly for 2C>6C on air hit, so I was wonderin why meaty j.C is preferred over meaty j.B

[TD]

it should be level 3 but could be level 2. jc catches rolls better due to longer downward hitbox. extra startup is also helpful for timing meaties. jb does not have these luxuries but is a solid normal in it's own right.