[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[Henaki]

I don't see how having different wake up times can be detrimental in anyway tbh, every character already have different walk speeds, dash speed, jump height, jump arc, throw range, normals (startup, range, recovery damage, etc), air dash length, weight,etc, etc, it actually makes sense that every character should have different wakeup time imo.

You can see all of these differences easily. In GG, wakeup times are different by small amounts which are difficult to pick up on visually. All of the other things you mentioned are obvious through observation.

Normals are part of what makes a character different from the system mechanics presented. They don't need to be the same. No character shares the same normal except in the case of clone characters, and it's not a huge deal because it doesn't make or break the knowledge you learn.

[Orrax]

Most characters in GG have very similar wakeup timing. Only a few characters are that noticeably different, namely Chipp and A.B.A. There are some minor differences between other characters, but it's not really a big deal and usually won't affect oki that significantly.

And yes, the wakeup timings are part of the balance of the game. I think Chipp's is mostly just there to throw people off -- and honestly, he needs it -- while A.B.A.'s lets people get off their IKs more easily when she runs out of Moroha meter.

EDIT: I removed those last two sentences but Henaki quoted them before I removed them, so I added it back in.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Orrax

[Henaki]

Most characters in GG have very similar wakeup timing. Only a few characters are that noticeably different, namely Chipp and A.B.A. There are some minor differences between other characters, but it's not really a big deal and usually won't affect oki that significantly.

And yes, the wakeup timings are part of the balance of the game. I think Chipp's is mostly just there to throw people off -- and honestly, he needs it -- while A.B.A.'s lets people get off their IKs more easily when she runs out of Moroha meter.

Different wakeup times are lazy design.

Give the characters more obvious strengths and weaknesses with regards to getting up. Chipp already has an FRCable DP as an example. More things like that, less things that make you have to do different okizeme timings. If you have to do different oki against a certain character for their movelist reasons, that's fine IMO. But beacuse they get up 2 frames later is obnoxious and serves no purpose besides making the game harder for the sake of it being harder in most cases.

Also, universal and basic mechanics like that should just be the same for clarity reasons alone. Dead Angles and Throws have very obviously different animations and are fine for being different as universal mechanics for this reason alone.

Jump startup being is stupid too, but I think it's like 1f difference except for Potemkin, which is a lot easier to learn. It's still dumb tho.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Henaki

[Orrax]

So what if two characters have noticeably slower wakeup timing? I can usually adjust to Chipp just fine, but it's another little thing he has to prevent people from keeping their momentum against him, as he dies really fast if people can keep their momentum against him.

And A.B.A.'s is, I think, more important. Unless I'm greatly mistaken, that long wakeup time lets you get IKs off against her, which is a pretty huge part of her balance. Moroha mode is great, but it has a huge risk if it runs out. I'm not saying there aren't better options out there for balancing, but I don't think two characters with different wakeup timings is necessarily bad, or lazy.

And jump startup is a really small thing. It's helpful for characters like Millia who have a faster jump startup (unless I'm mistaken about this, too), as she doesn't have many other ways out of pressure aside from backdash and jump. Little details like that may not seem like much, and there may be other ways to balance the game instead, but that doesn't mean they're bad, and they can still be important.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Orrax

[Henaki]

Chipp having an unusually fast wakeup time is fine. As long as it's noticeably different and has an understandable way to convey it. Stuff like RoboKy delayed getup is great. The moroha thing is obvious because it has an animation after she gets up.

Conveying that universal mechanics are different is fine. What's stupid is making these little differences that change nothing except rote memorization in most cases. Gameplay reason with clarity = AOK.

I understand that the wakeup times do make a difference in really subtle ways and do change what kind of oki works on some chars, but you can do similar things with wakeup options like how a lot of the characters with weaker defense have fast and high invincibility backdashes. All backdashes have wildly different animations, again, a case where different invulnerability times are fine beacuse the precedent is already these moves are different, even if universal.

Like, wakeup times and i think jump startup are the only two things that invalidate the "clearly different" rule. Everything else you can plainly see that as a universal mechanic if the move or animation or whatever is wildly different, the move has different properties. Both of these things fall under like 1-2 frame differences in most cases, which is just annoying as hell for learning, even if it serves a (minute)gameplay purpose that can be solved some other way.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Henaki

[Orrax]

Chipp having an unusually fast wakeup time is fine. As long as it's noticeably different and has an understandable way to convey it. Stuff like RoboKy delayed getup is great. The moroha thing is obvious because it has an animation after she gets up.

Conveying that universal mechanics are different is fine. What's stupid is making these little differences that change nothing except rote memorization in most cases. Gameplay reason with clarity = AOK.

I understand that the wakeup times do make a difference in really subtle ways and do change what kind of oki works on some chars, but you can do similar things with wakeup options like how a lot of the characters with weaker defense have fast and high invincibility backdashes. All backdashes have wildly different animations, again, a case where different invulnerability times are fine beacuse the precedent is already these moves are different, even if universal.

Like, wakeup times and i think jump startup are the only two things that invalidate the "clearly different" rule. Everything else you can plainly see that as a universal mechanic if the move or animation or whatever is wildly different, the move has different properties. Both of these things fall under like 1-2 frame differences in most cases, which is just annoying as hell for learning, even if it serves a (minute)gameplay purpose that can be solved some other way.

Pretty sure Chipp's wakeup timing is slower not faster (unless it depends on whether he is facing down or up?), but yeah, I understand more where you're coming from now. In terms of wakeup timing, I think you're complaining more about a character like Testament who gets up just slightly slower. I don't find it that hard to adjust to, but it does occasionally throw off one setup I have where I land a near-perfect meaty low on oki.

I still disagree about the jump difference rule -- those couple of minute frames make a pretty significant difference. It really helps someone like Millia, while it really hurts someone like Axl, yet there's only a one frame difference between the two. I think that's a good example of very small, almost imperceptible changes going a long way, while I mostly agree that a 2 frame slower wakeup on, say, Testament probably does not really need to be there. Basically, if something is a significant tweak to what a character can and cannot do, good, but if it's only messing with a little bit of timing memorization, then I can see a much stronger case being made against it.

EDIT: Speaking of which, anyone have that chart that used to show the different characters' wakeup times? I can't seem to find it.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Orrax

[Henaki]

Hm, so I'm guessing we'll see news in about 4ish hours when a few people with phones start BBSing

[Luminos564]

So, the loketest will start (if it hasn't already) soon. Cross your fingers for early footage of the game. Man, it's been so long since GG moved on from the XX days that I still can't believe we're getting another.

[Blade]

So I was thinking about the lack of mention of throw-teching on the way home this morning, and was struck by a super dumb idea. We know that in X through to /, both players hitting throw on the same frame would result in a counterhit 5H/6H for the character with the faster normal (and how Jam could Excalibur her way out etc.). So what I thought was, what if they're not using that rule for Xrd?

What if they make same-frame throw attempts clash?

In other words, you get a reset back to neutral, but now you're in DANGER TIME?

Based on how we currently know Danger Time works, I don't think it works with throw techs, especially given how some timings for throw teching are in other players' favor even after the tech.

That, and I think they abolished Burst Throwing too for obvious reasons.

I'd sooner assume anything that can clash with Sol's Volcanic Viper without getting blown back would enter Danger Time, meaning he's taking more even MORE risk to mash DPs.

[ElvenShadow]

Right now there's an opening event w Daisuke. It is about to end. Only a few ppl made it in for that. The line to play stretches to outside and is like 5 ppl wide. They won't even let me stand at the back of the line now. Hopefully I can get in line eventually. At least I got this thing.

[Kurushii]

The line:

https://twitter.com/ensetugekka/status/365641417126711296

[Kurushii]

https://twitter.com/hirorin_yui/status/365645783334264832

5 button types? o.0

https://twitter.com/maidskii/status/365640662604996608

Another shot of the fan.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Kurushii

[Hecatom]

Isn't that like the standard anyway?

[ElvenShadow]

I may not be able to test much lol.... Looks like you guys will mostly be relying on translating what all the japanese players say and pool it together

[Kurushii]

https://twitter.com/maidskii/status/365664396527140864

https://twitter.com/maidskii/status/365667401628520451

https://twitter.com/maidskii/status/365668603552473089

https://twitter.com/hc0519/status/365668633000681472

https://twitter.com/hc0519/status/365669053538385923

https://twitter.com/hc0519/status/365669184941719553

https://twitter.com/hc0519/status/365669685997486083

[Xtra_Zero]

Daaaaaaaamn I bet it's gonna be even worse Saturday :/

Maybe I should just go to Kobe instead.

I think by button "type" he means "configuration"? It says there's a BB-type and a P4U-type, so I'm thinking there are 5 different layouts to choose from.

[IllogicalDreamr]

https://twitter.com/maidskii/status/365664396527140864

https://twitter.com/maidskii/status/365668603552473089

First one says something about Millia's new technique. I can't make out what that Katakana is supposed to mean, but he didn't get enough time with the game yet since he only played one match.

This one says that Venom's 6P properties are like from the old games.

[kosmos badgirl]

A lot of people there and they don't have that many machines.

[ElvenShadow]

Ok I played one match against a human, Ky vs Ky.

Game speed feels good! Pretty much just like XX series.

RC works with whiffed normals and projectiles and does slow time but time slow is very brief and doesn't really seem like it will disrupt match flow.

Dust feels nice and smooth and I tried both kings.

Character select screen doesn't look like it will fit many more characters but hopefully they will redesign it.

The graphics are stunning. Fully animated 3D intros for characters. The game is visually wonderful.

Supers are cinematic like SF4 but go much quicker and don't really bother me or take long.

FD feels the same. Tapping it will stop run momentum as always.

Specials seems to carry momentum as always.

Couldn't hear music.

Ky had some strange air lightning bolt stab that I wasn't sure how to do.

Millia has a backwards roll now too and also had some move that shot up from the ground sorta like testament dust but I dunno what it was. Either stand D or a special.

I think I saw Sol do a dive kick like move outside of dragon install but I dunno.

Even with the costume change, PO animates and fights like always so he still feels like PO visually at least.

Meter builds maybe the same? Faster? It's hard to tell.

I think that's all I got for now. More to come.

[Agni]

A lot of people there and they don't have that many machines.

Holy fuck. Japanese arcades are ridiculous.

[Mumm-Ra]

Thanks for the info Elvenshadow. Wich was the most used character?

[Appledash-]

So none of the characters seemed to be radically different from previous iterations? Did anyone have any tweaked stances or anything like that? And are the sprites still mirrored?

[the_d3v]

RC works with whiffed normals and projectiles and does slow time but time slow is very brief and doesn't really seem like it will disrupt match flow.

Wait, so the "Yellow" RC only works on normals and projectiles? What about special moves?

[LeonD]

Wait, so the "Yellow" RC only works on normals and projectiles? What about special moves?

LOL could you plz tell me wat normals in GG are projectile-properties?? Sol's GIRLFRIEND????

Anyhow, I wonder if they turned Roman Cancel into..... plz don't tell me it's RAPID!?

Hopefully someone could record a vid for us... SO DAMN HYPE RIGHT NOW!!!

[Xtra_Zero]

Wait, so the "Yellow" RC only works on normals and projectiles? What about special moves?

I think he's just highlighting that you can also RC projectiles and whiffed normals because you could always RC some whiffed special moves and landed normals.