[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[Digital Watches]

As a general rule, most do not. There may be a few special cases, but for the most part, jumping normals not done with the D button recover instantly on landing.

[Destin]

As a general rule, most do not. There may be a few special cases, but for the most part, jumping normals not done with the D button recover instantly on landing.

Hahaha, how embarrassing, I was thinking of jump D's.

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

Um, since when does j.S have landing recovery? If an aerial normal that doesn't specifically have landing recovery does 10F of stun on IB, and a grounded normal has 9F startup, that's a true blockstring on IB.

1F guaranteed landing recovery from a jump. 9F startup vs 9F recovery, reversal DP/Backdash is possible. Test it in training mode if you don't believe me!

Even if it did work, that would require you to time 2 different things down to 1F timing just to get that as a proper oki, and frankly that's not an oki solid enough to use.

[SuperJ]

you can block immediately after landing though :| especially noticeable when you land during the middle of an attack that vertically shrinks your hurtbox

gg frame data is also listed such that the total startup equals the 1st active frame. so 7f startup = has 6 startup frames and hits on frame 7

here's something related and interesting: if you do a jumping attack that connects exactly on the last airborne frame, your landing recovery (e.g. from j.D) is ignored, and you can cancel the normal into a grounded special! if you have hase timing you could do bullshit like FDC j.K, c.S-6P with i-no

[Destin]

There are also ways to remove the recovery from Jump D's, though I don't recall what they are. I'm sure Clayton knows though.

[Digital Watches]

Generally you can special-cancel the landing recovery of a j.D. I'm not 100% sure it requires you to connect with the attack, or whether this applies to accumulated landing recovery (Landing recovery happens even if the move that caused it wasn't the last move you did in the air. The classic example is Baiken's Youzansen: Guaranteed to recover in the air, but has landing recovery whenever you actually land) or recovery from special moves. I'm not sure where you're getting the 1F landing recovery thing, as you can definitely at least block on the frame you land as long as you didn't do a move that causes landing recovery sometime during your jump.

Also: The claim that something requiring 1F timing means something isn't usable is basically already discredited as an argument, if we're talking about something that doesn't also require reacting to an opponent. Humans have provably mastered 1F timing on numerous occasions in numerous different games, including the people who could do 1F FRCs consistently when they existed, as well as any number of 1F links in more games than I'm going to bother to name here. Hell, I use a 1F link in my +R combos, and I'm definitely far from an execution god. It's certainly difficult, but it's demonstrably within human capabilities to do it consistently with practice, and thus match-viable. Whether it's worth doing might be up to question, but it's not going to be because of the strict timing.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Digital Watches

[SuperJ]

the only other way to erase landing recovery iirc is to double-jump

interestingly, since youzansen got brought up, i wonder if people try to do their YZSs higher in the air (as opposed to asap)? that way, you can make the opponent guess if you're going to RC and, when you don't, double jump and erase YZS recovery

also i tested and j.D recovery is not cancellable. tried ky (very noticable) and i-no (41236S gave me nothing, whereas i'd get j.236S if i'm still airborne)

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

you can block immediately after landing though :| especially noticeable when you land during the middle of an attack that vertically shrinks your hurtbox

Yup, but you can't do anything else. You can even see it's a weird special frame because if you hold down+back you'll get a standing block animation instead of a crouch block! But if you try to do jump -> DP, you can still get thrown guaranteed for 1F.

This frame even used to be a source of a bug IIRC, if you recall the hilarious no-pushback glitch from X2 days.

gg frame data is also listed such that the total startup equals the 1st active frame. so 7f startup = has 6 startup frames and hits on frame 7

Hrm yeah this is true though. Still, give it a try in training mode and you will see it doesn't work. Would be much easier to analyze if I still had a decent capture card. Not sure if I'm missing some property of the move prevent it from hitting exactly 1F before ground recovery, or perhaps the effect of it hitting is causing some similar frame discrepancy.

Also: The claim that something requiring 1F timing means something isn't usable is basically already discredited as an argument, if we're talking about something that doesn't also require reacting to an opponent. Humans have provably mastered 1F timing on numerous occasions in numerous different games, including the people who could do 1F FRCs consistently when they existed, as well as any number of 1F links in more games than I'm going to bother to name here. Hell, I use a 1F link in my +R combos, and I'm definitely far from an execution god. It's certainly difficult, but it's demonstrably within human capabilities to do it consistently with practice, and thus match-viable. Whether it's worth doing might be up to question, but it's not going to be because of the strict timing.

Yeah except this is TWO 1F links in a row, and the timing changes depending upon

1) The character you are playing against

2) If they are knocked down face-forward or face-backward

3) The setup for the knockdown that you get

So no, that's not practical.

FWIW again even if it did work, it would make your tick setups dramatically worse, and make your OS options a lot worse as well. So it's still a huge nerf down on top of everything else.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Koozebanian Fazoob

[Digital Watches]

Yeah, I'd believe it's only cancellable via second-order cancel properties (i.e. you connected with the j.D, thus the "special-cancellable" state you gain from that carries over to the landing recovery).

[Digital Watches]

Yeah except this is TWO 1F links in a row, and the timing changes depending upon

1) The character you are playing against

2) If they are knocked down face-forward or face-backward

3) The setup for the knockdown that you get

So no, that's not practical.

I'm not going to dispute that it's not a very practical setup, because as far as I can tell Potemkin doesn't get much reward for landing a 2P anyway, but if we're going to argue the feasibility of setups based on these factors, we could say that reliable oki in GG is basically impossible, because:

-There are always different knockdown setups

-There are always different wakeup timings for each character

-There are always different wakeup timings for front- or back-facing knockdown.

The fact that you've got to memorize a 1F link on top of the already memorization-intensive game that is okizeme in Guilty Gear does make the setup extremely hard to do, but I don't think it's going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back to where we need to start calling it "impractical" or "not match viable." It's still just a character-specific/setup-specific timing you have to memorize.

So yeah, that particular setup is probably not very practical, but if an equivalently-difficult thing got you some insane gain you couldn't get otherwise, like an unreadable 50-50 into 40% and knockdown, you bet your ass top players would do that shit. Consistently. In matches.

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

I'm not going to dispute that it's not a very practical setup, because as far as I can tell Potemkin doesn't get much reward for landing a 2P anyway, but if we're going to argue the feasibility of setups based on these factors, we could say that reliable oki in GG is basically impossible, because:

Typically, normal oki is not a problem because reversals have some amount of startup. For example, Sol VV has 5F of startup, so a jumping oki against it has a fair amount of wiggle room for timing. You do still have to adjust for different characters (notably the ones with super long getup times), but it's not really all that difficult with some practice.

And say in our example with Pote, j.S -> 5P is really easy because 5P is only 5F startup, which means there's a ton of wiggle room there to miss the link as well. If you switch to 2P, now suddenly you have 0F wiggle room on your landing link, which means you ALSO have 0F wiggle room on your jump -> j.S timing. So that takes something from being like a couple of 4F-ish links (your second one being - a few frames depending on how good your first one was) to being two guaranteed 1F links.

[Digital Watches]

Which, again, would be a serious problem for viability if we were operating under the assumption that humans can't learn to reliably perform 1F links. I don't consider that assumption to be one we can rely on when describing top-level play in fighting games. Do you disagree?

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

Two do two 1F links in a row where the timing changes depending on 3 different factors? Yes I considering that humanly impractical to do with any sort of reliability.

[Digital Watches]

I suspect we're simply at an impasse here until one of us manages to produce some data. However, consider this:

When timing a meaty jump-in against an opponent in Guilty Gear, no matter what it is, the factors that might change your setup as I understand them are:

-Your jump arc makes you land on a certain frame. It's very likely you have this timing at least roughly memorized for your character and the setup you're doing. For practical intents and purposes at high level play, the execution of this should be irrelevant.

-The opponent wakes up at a set time that you may well have memorized, based on their character and which way they fell (Face-up or face-down). If we assume you've memorized it, and your setup is possible given the time you have, this is completely irrelevant.

-Your aerial move has a finite number of active frames. This is one error window. Their first vulnerable frame from waking up must be during one of these active frames, or you whiff.

-Your air-to-ground link only works in a 1F window, or it is not a true blockstring.

These are all things that you can grind out in training mode. Once you know your setup and you know what character you're facing, there is nothing you have to adapt to mid-match, if you've practiced this setup already. The combination of multiple factors makes a setup more difficult to learn and get right, but it doesn't make it impossible to do consistently, any more than a character-specific combo containing multiple 1F links is impossible to do. It's not necessarily a good thing that these games contain things you basically have to grind to get right, but denying that someone could do it is tantamount to being unprepared for the inevitable opponent who does.

Most people don't go into training mode and practice every setup and every combo against every character. Some people do. Maybe I'm just the unlucky SOB who plays the character they've practiced against. It doesn't matter. If the setup exists, and it's good, it's a threat in real matches, 1F timing or not. When I encounter one of those people, I'm not going to bet against them knowing their setups that require 1F timing.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Digital Watches

[SuperJ]

Yup, but you can't do anything else. You can even see it's a weird special frame because if you hold down+back you'll get a standing block animation instead of a crouch block! But if you try to do jump -> DP, you can still get thrown guaranteed for 1F.

i think you're right. this is related to the earlier j.D spiel but it almost feels like there is more than 1f of recovery when you don't land a jump-in as deep as possible, regardless if the move has landing recovery or not. i was messing around with slayer. i can combo shallow j.K -> 236P easy as tweeting if i use the macro glitch (!), but it's a complete bitch to time manually. i almost suspect you have to perfectly time the special cancel on the first frame of landing or else you're stuck for a few more frames. i dunno, this engine is really showing its age

anyways, i think we should complain about how stupid slidehead frc is. lol

and if Xrd keeps the timestop and possible-on-whiff properties, it could potentially be busted in that game too. confirm the hit and convert (timestop) or punish their invincible action and/or force them to RC back

[Delrian]

Two do two 1F links in a row where the timing changes depending on 3 different factors? Yes I considering that humanly impractical to do with any sort of reliability.

Doing 2 1F links consistently isn't a problem for top players.

Dealing with character-specific and situation-specific timings in those aforementioned factors seems to be manageable by top players.

I don't see why mixing the two makes them impractical, just two different aspects of difficulty. After all, wouldn't the timing from j.S hitting -> 2P be consistent, so only the first link is what changes?

[Destin]

Characters always fall the same side if knocked down by the same move/combo right?

[Narroo]

Doing 2 1F links consistently isn't a problem for top players.

Dealing with character-specific and situation-specific timings in those aforementioned factors seems to be manageable by top players.

I don't see why mixing the two makes them impractical, just two different aspects of difficulty. After all, wouldn't the timing from j.S hitting -> 2P be consistent, so only the first link is what changes?

Well there's your problem. Not everyone is or wants to be a top player. Some people just are happy to be proficient and have fun with their friends. Either way, becoming a top player takes a huge investment of time so not everyone can achieve that.

[Destin]

Well there's your problem. Not everyone is or wants to be a top player. Some people just are happy to be proficient and have fun with their friends. Either way, becoming a top player takes a huge investment of time so not everyone can achieve that.

Of course, they were just arguing it's possible and practical if you really wanted to learn and apply it. They were not implying that everyone wanted to learn and apply it.

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

Characters always fall the same side if knocked down by the same move/combo right?

Yeah I believe so. Basic takeaway was just that every possible setup is going to have different timing and how that timing changes may vary from character to character (weight differences are a factor too).

[Delrian]

Well there's your problem. Not everyone is or wants to be a top player. Some people just are happy to be proficient and have fun with their friends. Either way, becoming a top player takes a huge investment of time so not everyone can achieve that.

Not everyone wants to invest the time to learn how to do a fireball either, so I guess we'll just talk about

the story

.

[Notwhoyouthink]

Under most normal situations you have to fullfill your dust recovery when you land other wise untill you do you will never be able to block when you land again. No matter how long you were to say.. loop it whatever. I belive I showed it in one of these old videos... I forget which one.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvU8vgyLlYk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic8YQXQpTnk

The most obvious way to cancel is this is you have to jump again with out doing a dust. Now the other ways are you have to do a air jump cancelable move low to the ground and chain out of it. Or you have to you have to do a cancelable air normal and cancel to a special before you hit the ground. Because remember in GG when one is close to the ground but not quiet, you overlap. This is why you can alpha counter in the air etc even though you are not on the ground.

As for landing recovery yes there is. But that does not necessarly mean you can be hit. In GG it is different. You just keep the same state. So your hit box will be bigger, or smaller, or you maybe crouching till you fullfill that full recovery. It doesnt matter if you jumped and then comboed a guy. Untill you have fullfilled your recovery from your jump, the next time you are hit, your hit box is still different.

GG has a lot of this stuff theres some really wacky stuff like only hitting with one hit of a multi hit move, and if that multi hit move at some point you were hit ducking, now the opponent can store that property of you ducking and the next time they hit you, you will automatically duck and get hit by a most likely bigger combo.

As for every character being hit the same, no off hand anji, and jam get knocked down diff by diff moves then every other character.

[Destin]

Interesting stuff

Yeah, I always wondered how you did some of that still stuff

As for every character being hit the same, no off hand anji, and jam get knocked down diff by diff moves then every other character.

I meant more like, if I throw Anji, he consistently hits the same side? Because I practice my oki based on my previous knockdown, so it didn't matter if sol was slightly more delay here slower wakeup there, I would just know after a throw he got hit with a perfect crossup with X timing.

[Notwhoyouthink]

Well it depends its still move specific. But certain characters get hit by moves diff. Say most obvious example is chipp always throws anji and jam the wrong way. So you can always corner cross them up. Its small specific instnaces like that. They just get hit diff by diff moves. Now I know dizzy always gets hit face down by moves. So she does have any diff get time of getting up like other characters if that matters....

And thanks but there is still a ton of diff bugs I never was able to find out how to do. I wish the game had a replay feature cuz that woulda made it much easier to brain storm on how certain things work if I got to see them again.

[TheRealBobMan]

Related to the topic of Sol being a grappler... can he cancel normals into Wild Throw in Xrd? As far as I know, he can't normally do that, which prevents annoying tick throw set-ups like May's 5K > OHK in AC and forces Sol to go the extra mile and spend meter on insert-move-here > Gunflame > FRC > Wild Throw before Gunflame hits.