[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[xlolxlolx]

tension pulse is most definitely still in the game, best example is a successful blitz shield which pretty much brings tension pulse to max 

[D.R.F.]

Now I haven't played the game, so I may be wrong on this, but wouldn't it be a purple RC if he whiffed wild throw for a punish? And don't those cost 50 meter?

yes which probably means he was guessing a jump and RC'ed on startup. PRC has I think too much startup to have been able to make a play like that.

[Destin]

yes which probably means he was guessing a jump and RC'ed on startup. PRC has I think too much startup to have been able to make a play like that.

Yeah that's what I imagined as well.  Why would they give sol that option but not pote after all?

[AllyOfJustice]

Do you guys think Xrd will be better if they put in things like rolling on wakeup? I'm surprised people aren't talking about this. If having more options mean more depth, shouldn't this be in Guilty Gear?

[ElvenShadow]

Do you guys think Xrd will be better if they put in things like rolling on wakeup? I'm surprised people aren't talking about this. If having more options mean more depth, shouldn't this be in Guilty Gear?

Fuck. No.

This ain't bb

[Destin]

Fuck. No.

This ain't bb

He's trolling hard, I would just ignore him. Yawn.

[AllyOfJustice]

He's trolling hard, I would just ignore him. Yawn.

I might have been too passionate in my earlier posts, but how in the fuck is my question trolling? How?

[Banoffee]

Do you guys think Xrd will be better if they put in things like rolling on wakeup? I'm surprised people aren't talking about this. If having more options mean more depth, shouldn't this be in Guilty Gear?

 

Rolling removes options from the attacker.

[D.R.F.]

Fuck rolling. Oppressive okizeme for the win. Now if they put that shit in then I would be screaming bullshit. Frcs dont make this game for me. Frantic gameplay, great universal defensive options and universally strong okizeme do.

[shtkn]

As info for this discussion:

YRC has 6F startup

PRC has 20F startup

All startup is pre super flash and is vulnerable to attack

Sent from my phone

[Destin]

As info for this discussion:

YRC has 6F startup

PRC has 20F startup

All startup is pre super flash and is vulnerable to attack

Sent from my phone

So the PRC just cuts the recovery of a move to 20f at the cost of 50% meter?  Can't you special/super cancel on whiff in marvel, or is that just 3?  It doesn't seem much worse.

[D.R.F.]

I'd have PRC any day to whiff super cancelling. I love skullgirls but that shit is OBNOXIOUS

[shtkn]

Based on my watching of videos, PRCs appear to only available when you RC during the recovery of an attack on whiff.

Iirc ppl can hit little Eddie > YRC since technically the opponent isn't in stun, so you should be able to YRC during the active frames on whiff


Sent from my phone

[DaiAndOh]

Iirc ppl can hit little Eddie > YRC since technically the opponent isn't in stun, so you should be able to YRC during the active frames on whiff

Sent from my phone

Confirming. This should also work with Dizzy Fish, Roger, Zappa Dog, etc. when they appear in the game.

I noticed you can hit Ky's glyphs and Bemdan's deja vu mark. Do those eat a hit like the others? Doesn't seem that way....

[TheRealBobMan]

Ok, let me explain what "Tension Pulse" is since it seems like we're getting things mixed up, and I was the person who first posted about it.

 

Load up AC/+R, go into training mode, set tension to infinite, and look at your tension meter flashing.  The rate at which it flashes is your Pulse.  Unfortunately, the white bar that moves across the tension meter in Xrd is just an aesthetic effect, just like with the health bars in Persona.  It always moves at the same rate, and it moves for both characters at the same time.  If there's anything more to it, I couldn't figure it out between all of the videos I've watched and all the time I spent playing, which was at least 50% of the time I spent at E3, and I went all 3 days.

 

Now, certain actions prorate your tension gain.  These actions include Faultless Defense (green block), Dead Angle, RC, FRC, and Force Break, and do so for about 4? seconds.  So, if you use any of these actions, you get less meter for a while.  Supers DO NOT prorate your Tension Gain, and neither do Slashbacks.  This does not affect Tension Pulse.

 

Now, you're sitting in training mode right?  Hit select or whatever button resets training mode.  See how fast your meter is flashing?  Backdash a until you're at full screen distance.  Notice how it's barely flashing anymore and you might even be in Negative Warning state depending on which character you're playing?  (IIRC Zappa and Pot suffer the least penalty for backing away, which makes sense for them).  This is your Tension Pulse being reduced.  Go ahead and pause, set your meter to 0, and unpause.  That will reset you to 0% tension, though your pulse should be unchanged.  Walk forward and look at how fast you get meter.

 

Now hit the reset button and walk forward, again starting at 0%.  Notice how much faster you build meter?  Tension Pulse is a modifier that changes how much meter you get for your actions.  A combo could give you 20% meter when you start it at Negative Warning, which is with a Pulse of nearly nothing, or 50% if your Pulse is racing because you've been dancing all over your opponent's face.

 

Another cool thing is that IB and SB raise your pulse, and can actually raise it past your character's maximum.  If you want to have some fun, go ahead and set it so that the CPU has 0% meter, then set it to block all with SB or IB.  Attack it a bunch of times, pause to reset the meter to 0%, then take control of it and walk forward.  It'll get full meter in like 1 second.

 

Now, if you hit Negative Penalty, yeah, your Tension gets taken away and your Tension Gain is nerfed to shit for 10 seconds, even in Xrd.  Don't run away too much!  Also, there was that great thread about the guy who got into I think #R's code and was looking at the formulas for figuring out stuff like Tension Gain and Negative Penalty, which helped my understanding of this.  Running away does hurt your Pulse, but specifically, being at full screen hurts it the most.  If you're backed into the corner and backdash because that's the right defensive option to do, the game doesn't punish you anywhere near as bad as if you're backdashing at full screen or doing super jump > airdash away from your opponent nonstop while they're in the other corner or at half screen.

 

Oh yeah, and because it was brought up, I don't think Blitz Shield prorates your meter gain, which is why it can be a useful defensive option despite being somewhat hard to use and sort of risky (whiff factor with the meter spent on it, and because IIRC they can't block Overdrives and possibly IKs).  You also get back 12.5% meter when it successfully repels a non-projectile attack (not sure about when it absorbs projectiles).

 

 

So yeah, similar to how some moves can prorate your damage, certain actions prorate your meter gain.  That said, they do not affect your pulse, so you could RTSD and go balls in with 4 FRCS to do pressure, and while your meter gain will go to shit after you've wasted all of it, if you can keep the lockdown going for another 4 seconds, your meter gain would be through the roof.

 

This made the decision to FD vs IB a really important one.  You could get certain punishes with IB that you couldn't with FD and vice versa, but there were some deeper things to consider when either/or could work.  GB goes up at 1/2 value when you're already in blockstun, so an IB could be the difference between 5K > 5H building 13GB and 23GB, even though your pulse goes up.  If they get in after you IB'd and didn't use the reduced blockstun to escape, you'd suffer more damage.  Is that worth it?  Pot has the health to get away with it if he gets hit, and probably would like to avoid FD since he'd have even more meter to use.  Since he can IB > backdash > Pot Buster it's kind of good to IB random things for meter since at any time he can make you whiff and punish you, though you could still punish him for it.  Other characters might not want to take the risk as much.  It's a cool layer of depth most people haven't thought about.

 

 

So yeah, for Xrd I tested Tension Pulse out by RTSDing on someone, then walking forward.  I then backdashed into Negative Warning and walked forward.  Same Tension Gain from what I could discern.  That was the best I could do in a combat environment (sorry Mike, I should have asked to test this stuff with you when we played!), and I feel bad as a QA Tester for not being more thorough.  Still, this is better evidence than anything else I've been able to get from videos.  The absense of this mechanic is actually really disappointing to me as I feel that the Guard Bar (now RISC) and Tension System really set GG apart from other fighting games.  That said, the Tension System is still different from other fighting games since you get meter for actions other than landing normals and whiffing special moves.  I hate that in other fighting games, you get meter by hitting the other guy, just to spend it to hit the other guy again a little harder.  Some go the "extra mile" and have EX moves with different properties, but to me that's a sissy little thing that barely adds anything to the gameplay in most cases.  I can use my DP, but if I expect you to DP with your better DP, I can use my EX DP TO BEAT THAT YEEEEAAAA

 

In GG you have to make the decision to build more meter vs spend meter to avoid chip and GB+ vs doing unburstable damage with Overdrives vs use a Reversal Overdrive vs RC a DP on block to become safe vs Dead Angle out of pressure vs FRC to extend your combo efficiently vs FRC/RC to create unorthodox mixup... the tactics are amazingly built, and it only works because you can build meter more freely than in other games, yet you don't get so much that degenerate strategies emerge.

 

 

 

 

I downplayed the importance of Tension Pulse being absent because I don't want to be that guy that makes everyone think the game sucks right when we finally have a way to attract new players after almost a decade.  You still get plenty of meter, and most of the decisions are still there.  You still have your meter gain prorated when you use FD/YRC/RC (maybe PRC, not 100% sure), and don't have it prorated when you use Overdrives.  You still lose all your meter when you get Negative Penalty, and you practically can't get meter for 10 seconds.  The plus side is that being at full screen doesn't drop your pulse, which means that maybe it's not too bad for Axl, though being at full screen with his stances does eventually cause Negative Penalty, so it's sort of a moot point since it just delays that effect.  *Shrug*  I'm sad because they removed a really cool system, and sadder because it's not like it accomplished making the game easier to understand.  Almost all of you didn't even know what I was talking about when I said Tension Pulse, and the visual feedback was built right into the meter in a VERY elegant way, so I can't fathom why it's gone (it's not like they did it to get a meter off the screen).  I don't think removing that system alone will hurt the game too much though, and I really hope they put it back in with the next iteration, though tweaking the Cancel System comes first.

 

 

Anyway, that should start things off.  I'll let some people read that and start posting responses, and maybe I can explain more stuff when I get home from work tomorrow.

 

 

 

 

Despite things that I don't like about the game, I have a lot of fun playing it.  At a glance I kinda want to say it probably isn't as mechanically sound as Accent Core, but it simplifies a lot and should help us get more people into the scene.  It's also a good starting point for rebuilding the series since they remade everything in 3D in a different engine, and it should have good netcode, and amazing content sharing capabilities with PS4.  If PS4 can load video directly to youtube now on top of streaming content, it should be easy for anyone to learn to be an Event Organizer and host Tournaments or Casual Sessions, given they have the space to get people together to play.  If that leads people to start playing AC instead of Xrd, sure.

 

Maybe my perspective is just different as I used to play Melee, which isn't quite as well designed as AC (though it's fun for emphasizing different skills and for different gameplay!), and had Brawl drop on my nutsack, which is infinitely worse than Xrd (and blatantly shat on the nutsack of everyone who played competitively with tripping).

 

 

But yeah, if people were going to say "Xrd sucks because No Tension Pulse", I'd probably wind up calling them sissies anyway.  For 99% of players, it'd just be a cached thought - they need an excuse to not do something hard, and it's a response that people would accept or let slide because it's this thing that someone who knows something said, kind of like when you memorize answers for a test and don't actually learn what they really mean.  If you don't like the game for other reasons, or because we later discover that the lack of pulse really hurts the game that much, it'd be a different story.  We'll just play +R (or AC if you're a Venom main or something - still kinda want to learn #R to play with some local Johnny and Eddie players, since I-No actually deals with Eddie kinda well).

[STenSatsu]

how exactly did people react to the addition of FRC in XX? being able to turn gunflame from 50f to 15f must have sounded utterly insane lol

The community was obscenely underground back in X and it was essentially non-competitive outside of some Otakon tournaments where you'd see somebody Jam FCD people to death. Thus there was much less worry about balance and more excitement about HOLY SHIT COOL STUFF! I wonder if Tragic has backups of any GCC posts around the time XX was coming out lol.

[ElvenShadow]

Nice info. I can't reay test all that right now but I'll take your word for it. What you said is true though that it doesn't seem to effect the game all that much and it's not an excuse to hate it. I agree that some things about AC etc are better but I like some new things in Xrd too. They are different games but both are good IMO

[D.R.F.]

The community was obscenely underground back in X and it was essentially non-competitive outside of some Otakon tournaments where you'd see somebody Jam FCD people to death. Thus there was much less worry about balance and more excitement about HOLY SHIT COOL STUFF! I wonder if Tragic has backups of any GCC posts around the time XX was coming out lol.

lol cool stuff

[Yuhoke]

So does anyone know if there's input leniency in Xrd? Haven't seen anyone mentioning this yet.

[ElvenShadow]

Someone said there is. It feels fine to me. I hardly ever mess up execution.

[White Man]

Well, as depressing as Mike Z's posts were to read, I'm inclined to respect his opinion since he sorta, you know, makes these kinds of games for a living.

That having been said, nothing anyone has posted (Mike Z included) thus far has bucked the trend of people critiquing Xrd based on its differences to previous GG titles, primarily AC+R.  I understand this is inevitable for a sequel, but I'd still prefer more emphasis placed on how well Xrd performs as a stand-alone game.  In other words, if game wasn't called Guilty Gear and had no connection to other games in the series, would you want to play it?  Because whether you're giving a bad game a free pass because you're a fan of the series or you're condemning a good game because you think it's too different from its predecessors, I can't trust any kind of review that's been run through a nostalgia filter.

If Xrd doesn't fulfill the role of a replacement for AC+R, GOOD.  Plus R is an incredibly fun game that doesn't need to be replaced.  Our generation has been trained by the corporate machine to reject whatever we have the instant a more recent version is released, and I absolutely despise that mentality.  Just because something has the holy symbol of "NEW" printed on it doesn't mean whatever came before it should be tossed in the garbage.  I'd like to believe the people making these games felt the same way and that's why Xrd was designed to be a unique experience with new mechanics and a different feel instead of just being Plus R: 3D Graphics Edition.

Now maybe I'm just deluding myself and trying to pull a sheet over the evidence in front of me that Xrd is a disappointment because I have nothing else in my life to look forward to right now and goddamn it I need this video game to be good please god just give me this one little thing oh please.  I don't know!  Having not yet played the game myself, I'm not going to close my mind off to any possibilities.  But if the main complaint from the GG vets continues to follow this pattern of comparing the game pixel-to-pixel to anything from the XX series, that's not going to put the smallest dent in my hype because I honestly don't see minor differences in the engine as a detriment.  If anything, I want Xrd to take the series in new directions because I have no intention of shelving Plus R anytime in the foreseeable future.

Sorry if this post has been sort of rambling.  I guess all I really wanted to say is that regardless of how you feel about the gameplay in Xrd at this point, I think we can at least all agree that Marvel vs. Capcom 3 is a piece of crap.

[ElvenShadow]

Osaka B won today's Kanto block a 1 qual. I lost to a Sol who got 2nd

[AllyOfJustice]

Releasing the game around the same time as Smash Bros. obviously isn't a smart idea. The game is going to need support from all the hardcore Guilty Gear fans (some which already hate Xrd) to be successful. Most kids are into Blazblue and Persona way more, where I live. And everytime I go into a GGXrd preview video, the people in the comments section have a general consensus: it looks good, but I like Blazblue better. There is one irrefutable fact and that is Guilty Gear doesn't have the same mainstream appeal as its brothers (let alone Smash Bros.). The FGC has love for it, but the younger crowd/average gamer will gravitate more towards BB. Smash Bros. is a trillion times more accessible and appealing.

 

Gameplay-wise, Smash Bros. looks a lot more fun. I don't think a typical guy will look at Xrd and say "I'd rather play that than Smash"

 

Graphics-wise, I personally think Xrd looks better. Smash has iconic characters doing wacky things all over the screen. Xrd just looks like anime characters no-one knows about doing typical anime things.

 

I love Guilty Gear and don't want to see it die, but I'm afraid Xrd might do just that. Ishiwatari is dead set on making the game as simple as possible for the newbies and that is destroying the already small group of people who are actually hyped for it. We need more ElvenShadows. More people who can stay optimistic no matter how terrible the game sounds right now. Like a great man once said, "A true warrior is invincible because he contests with nothing."

[zdravkelja]

Nah, this will be the biggest Guilty Gear ever. 

[ElvenShadow]

Releasing the game around the same time as Smash Bros. obviously isn't a smart idea. The game is going to need support from all the hardcore Guilty Gear fans (some which already hate Xrd) to be successful. Most kids are into Blazblue and Persona way more, where I live. And everytime I go into a GGXrd preview video, the people in the comments section have a general consensus: it looks good, but I like Blazblue better. There is one irrefutable fact and that is Guilty Gear doesn't have the same mainstream appeal as its brothers (let alone Smash Bros.). The FGC has love for it, but the younger crowd/average gamer will gravitate more towards BB. Smash Bros. is a trillion times more accessible and appealing.

Gameplay-wise, Smash Bros. looks a lot more fun. I don't think a typical guy will look at Xrd and say "I'd rather play that than Smash"

Graphics-wise, I personally think Xrd looks better. Smash has iconic characters doing wacky things all over the screen. Xrd just looks like anime characters no-one knows about doing typical anime things.

I love Guilty Gear and don't want to see it die, but I'm afraid Xrd might do just that. Ishiwatari is dead set on making the game as simple as possible for the newbies and that is destroying the already small group of people who are actually hyped for it. We need more ElvenShadows. More people who can stay optimistic no matter how terrible the game sounds right now. Like a great man once said, "A true warrior is invincible because he contests with nothing."

I'll bite cuz I'm drunk but... I'm not just hyping the game for the sake of it. I honestly think knife a quality, fun, deep fighting game. If you wanna be pessimistic and hate it before you even try it tyn you are just on less pot monster to give top players money. I'm a pretty nice guy, but your commnst have been nothing but negative and ignorant. I respect constructive criticism about the game from people like Mike Z because he's a developer and also long time player and I know him personally. You just come off like some young kid internet troll. Go play smash. No one will miss you.