Uncivilized Elk Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 If they are going for a sexy design, might as well go all the way instead of half-assing it. Except every single other aspect of her design isn't sexy. I-no has a sexy design (and a personality to match it). El's design is (quite literally) titillation, purely for the sake of titillation - just shoving a ridiculous boob window on any random set of clothes is about as half-assed as you can get when you're going for a 'sexy design'. This is the first time that GG is the slowest and simplest out of the 3 big Arcsystemworks fighters I'm sorry - wut?
White Man Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 A lot of folks here don't read/buy manga, I assume. Censoring cover illustrations over here is not terribly uncommon, as most stores have very strict policies regarding what kind of content can be displayed on their shelves (one cover for a series called Zombie Powder was changed to an entirely separate image because the original depicted a character holding a gun to his own head). A change made to the packaging doesn't mean the content inside was altered. Honestly, the fact that the logo design no longer lines up with the crest behind it bothers me far more than Elphet's little wardrobe adjustment. That's going to bug the hell out of my OCD... But yeah, Aksys has a thing for covering female "tops" in game cover arts, not just GG, but BB, and some other games too. Other than that, the GG series is mostly T rated anyways (Overture too), but I don't get AC+/R's M rating, when AC+ on the PS2/PSP/Wii was T rated anyways, some weird and insane logic though. This is only conjecture with no facts to back it up, but my theory regarding the rating change is it was due to the fact that ASW handled the localization themselves. I don't think they're as intimately familiar with the ESRB rating process as Aksys, so they were probably less careful when submitting the required information about the game. If you'll notice, the PS2 port of AC+ lists "Mild Blood" on the ESRB rating tag, while the XBLA/PSN version simply lists "Blood". If ASW submitted a statement that the game contained depictions of blood without specifying the amount or the context, that could've made the difference between the game receiving a T or M rating. They might've been less precise describing the extent of the game's "sexual themes" as well... Who knows. Again, just a theory. This is stuff I like to think about because the methodology behind content rating fascinates me.
BladeOfJustice7 Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 @elk, don't feed into this please... Anyone else impressed with the game's hitstun after trying out the demo. I was honestly shocked, I can't really tell any difference between Xrd Ky "combos" (I can't play for shit on pad), and ACR Ky combos. Maybe there is a difference, and I just need extensive training mode time to tell the difference. What are everyone else's thoughts?
Uncivilized Elk Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Is there even blood to begin with in Xrd? That might help its teen rating as well, though I feel the 'careful descriptions' hypothesis fits best in general. I can't really tell any difference between Xrd Ky "combos" (I can't play for shit on pad), and ACR Ky combos. You're gonna have to specify what you mean by "difference", as many combos are different in the literal sense of the word different. The stringed attacks are no longer the same (because some moves are gone, obviously, playing a major factor). Do you mean generic combos like (CH) 2H jS djS djH djDP feel really similar to ACR because of the hitstun and gravity are similar, or what?
AllyOfJustice Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Except every single other aspect of her design isn't sexy. I-no has a sexy design (and a personality to match it). El's design is (quite literally) titillation, purely for the sake of titillation - just shoving a ridiculous boob window on any random set of clothes is about as half-assed as you can get when you're going for a 'sexy design'. But covering it up/not covering it up doesn't make a better character design or worse. People here are saying they have "good taste"/it's a better character design simply because of the tiny cleavage blocker. That little piece of clothing doesn't change anything. Also, about half-assing it, I don't think you got my point. Yes, they made a boob window. So why cover it on the box art? Also, her actual model in the game is unchanged, which means they half-assed multiple things. I'm sorry - wut? Ishiwatari succeeded in making a more accessible GG by making it really simple and slow. If you look at the other Arcsys fighters which have only gotten more complex gameplay-wise, Xrd is really really basic in comparison.
BladeOfJustice7 Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Is there even blood to begin with in Xrd? That might help its teen rating as well, though I feel the 'careful descriptions' hypothesis fits best in general. You're gonna have to specify what you mean by "difference", as many combos are different in the literal sense of the word different. The stringed attacks are no longer the same (because some moves are gone, obviously, playing a major factor). Do you mean generic combos like (CH) 2H jS djS djH djDP feel really similar to ACR because of the hitstun and gravity are similar, or what? This. People were worried about the game being slower since the hitstop (or hitstun?) on each move has been increased ever so slightly. But in all honesty, I don't think I can tell the difference within the short period of time I got to fool around with Ky. It felt like doing ACR combos honestly.
Jakestation Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 The game is still faster than BB or persona. Also adding new roman cancels doesnt make the game more complex? Also the combos arent exactly easier. FAB been whining a lot in twitter that those 6k loops are super hard etc.
D.R.F. Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 The game is still faster than BB or persona. Also adding new roman cancels doesnt make the game more complex? Also the combos arent exactly easier. FAB been whining a lot in twitter that those 6k loops are super hard etc. Lol them shits look super hard. All the charge motions and that jazz, not to mention it is a link to loop the 6K
Uncivilized Elk Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Ishiwatari succeeded in making a more accessible GG by making it really simple and slow. If you look at the other Arcsys fighters which have only gotten more complex gameplay-wise, Xrd is really really basic in comparison. Exchanging FRCs for YRCs doesn't suddenly make the game really simple. The game is also barely slower (it's hard to notice a difference), as has been confirmed by a multitude of people. But please, go on. As for the El topic... there's really no need to discuss it with somebody who is literally claiming that making a change to the design makes no change.
Uncivilized Elk Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 It's really no use bothering. We've been through this hundreds of times before. Making the game slightly more accessible to beginners by simplifying some inputs (ohgod Chemical Love inputs consists of 3 less numbers - the horror!), giving some things auto-jump installs, making YRCs not need several frame-perfect timing like FRCs, and giving XRCs time slowdown for combo aid (while still retaining ****ing hard as hell to pull off combos/loops anyway for pretty much every character) doesn't make the entire game more basic or simple. It's laughable because all of GG's core concepts are retained for Xrd, the only real huge shift is trading in FRCs for YRCs and PRCs, which alone by no means makes the game basic or simple. There is no other change that is on a fundamental enough level for this game to somehow be below +R in complexity. Your entire argument rests on the premise that YRCs+PRCs replacing FRCs makes this game less complex than P4A or BB. Guess what, I'll easily claim that +R stripped of FRCs entirely is STILL more complex than BB or P4A. And I even asked about the speed thing several pages ago after the demo launched. The game speed is nearly the same, the (extremely) mild slowdown is incredibly hard to notice according to every single person who has played the game and posted in this thread so far. Again, this has repeated countless times in the past. This joker thinks stating "the game is simpler and slower!" without extrapolating or explaining anything beyond those stupid claims is considered 'debate'. He STILL cannot comprehend that stating a conclusion (which saying the game is slower, simple, and basic IS a conclusion) without supporting evidence isn't presenting argument, it's just stating a viewpoint. He may as well be stuck in a perpetual state of troll without knowing it, because he basically serves the same purpose.
TD Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 To be fair, the game does appear simple®, at least compared to the extremely hardcore shells of it's former self. Perhaps not to the point that was being projected, and it's certainly not a fact just because the developer said it. The depth of gameplay is definitely still there and will remain complex, but it should be easier for someone to pickup and do a combo or two with a character of their choosing. No more having the be Grandmaster Sensei-sama just to do a basic I-no bnb.
Uncivilized Elk Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 To be fair, the game does appear simple®, at least compared to the extremely hardcore shells of it's former self. Perhaps not to the point that was being projected, and it's certainly not a fact just because the developer said it. The depth of gameplay is definitely still there and will remain complex, but it should be easier for someone to pickup and do a combo or two with a character of their choosing. No more having the be Grandmaster Sensei-sama just to do a basic I-no bnb. I disagree. You do not judge how simple a game is by how easy it is to pick up and play. You judge how simple a game is by its complexity and depth at the higher levels of play. SSB Melee is extremely easy to pick up and play for pretty much anyone who has ever played a video game. The competitive high-level play of Melee is about as far from simple as you could ever get. What you are talking about is called accessibility. Simplicity and accessibility are not the same. Accessibility is pretty much always good. There should never be a reason to purposefully turn down making something more accessible, all other things being equal of course (that part is crucially important, as a lot of times there's no way for all things to be equal while going for more accessibility - hence why FRCs had to be scrapped entirely and replaced with a new cancelling system, which had the intention of retaining similar levels of complexity and depth but being easier to manage for those without the fingers of god).
TAI-X Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 The depth of gameplay is definitely still there and will remain complex, but it should be easier for someone to pickup and do a combo or two with a character of their choosing. No more having the be Grandmaster Sensei-sama just to do a basic I-no bnb. And the execution barrier will still be lower than SFIV frame links. It's ALWAYS been accessible to do basic, non-roman combos in GG because of magic series and the generous input windows. Also, GG characters have more straightforward and improvised playstyles than in BB, where many characters have arbitrary Drive mechanics that their entire strategy hinges on and can only be applied a few different ways.
TD Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 I disagree. You do not judge how simple a game is by how easy it is to pick up and play. You judge how simple a game is by its complexity and depth at the higher levels of play. SSB Melee is extremely easy to pick up and play for pretty much anyone who has ever played a video game. The competitive high-level play of Melee is about as far from simple as you could ever get. What you are talking about is called accessibility. Simplicity and accessibility are not the same. Accessibility is pretty much always good. There should never be a reason to purposefully turn down making something more accessible, all other things being equal of course (that part is crucially important, as a lot of times there's no way for all things to be equal while going for more accessibility - hence why FRCs had to be scrapped entirely and replaced with a new cancelling system, which had the intention of retaining similar levels of complexity and depth but being easier to manage for those without the fingers of god). This is what I have said I am in agreeance. Just in case I was not clear the last time: I agree that the game is more accessible to old and new players alike. I am not saying that execution as a whole suddenly dumbed down or anything like that. All I am saying is that if a new person were to try this game as opposed to trying the same character in AC, there is more of a chance of them being successful. I know that has to do with accessibility. In no way am I comparing accessibility and simplicity. One cannot argue though that some characters have indeed gotten simpler (yes, simpler), like I-no. It was generally agreed in the I-no forums that she is more simple to play than before. This is exactly why I used her solely as an example. Individually, some characters have gotten easier, harder, or remained the same. Does one or several characters being easier make the game itself easy/more simple? Not at all, but those same character count in the grand scheme of things. Just as those that have become harder matter in the big picture. When I said the game was more simple I am not saying it is simple by itself. I am comparing Xrd vs Accent Core, #R, Slash, etc, not just by itself, which may be the confusion. I do think that, compared to those games, Xrd is the simpler title, and accessibility actually does play a factor here. We can't just forget about casual players, you know. And the execution barrier will still be lower than SFIV frame links. It's ALWAYS been accessible to do basic, non-roman combos in GG because of magic series and the generous input windows. Also, GG characters have more straightforward and improvised playstyles than in BB, where many characters have arbitrary Drive mechanics that their entire strategy hinges on and can only be applied a few different ways. I don't just mean magic combos, I mean intermediate ones that use the more advanced system mechanics, might be even more lenient than before. Once again it doesn't necessarily mean the game will be easier. Just more accessible. Of course playing at a high level is still going to require massive cognitive function which I am sure all of us have enjoyed about GG, otherwise we would not be here.
Uncivilized Elk Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Honestly, most of the combos I've seen so far across all the characters (cumulatively, one by one I can agree I-no's combo string may be easier to execute) look very comparable to +R in terms of tech skill necessary to perform. And then apparently somebody is saying even FAB is complaining about dem loops. When people say I-no is easier to play are they talking about the entire experience? Heavily factoring in the neutral game? Or are they talking about how hard it is to do an optimal combo? Because on my personal pie graph, I allocate a fairly small slice of a game's complexity to the difficulty of executing optimal combos (at least for games like GG, in Marvel it's like 50%).
Pichy Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Optimal combos for someone like Ky is like a 30% increase to damage in the corner. Optimal combos for I-no basically doubled her damage output. On a character with no meterless reversal and really poor corner carry off of the easy combos, this basically means you have to open up your opponent twice as much. That's nearing on 10 bouts a round instead of 4-6ish. Pretty darn important for her.
Anne Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Hi, remember when I said not to respond to obvious trolls (BB vs GG comparisons still aren't allowed) and to not wander into this character design discussion?Just because I don't post in here everyday doesn't mean the rules suddenly changed or I'm not paying attention. Seriously knock it off or I'll temp lock the thread.
Leopold Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 What is with all these posts about the game's difficulty and what not?! Honestly, I think the elitist attitude of people who want the game to remain extremely complicated (not mechanics but inputs, YRC and etc) is rather a disadvantage that will only hurt the game itself. Having things like FRC and no buffering only keeps people away from the game because it's too hard and you have to practice those demanded things over and over and over. What is the point of training in succession those things that only prevents the players to access higher level game play? The point is to get in and help everybody do it. After all, high level game play does not revolve around this guy can do an extension and this guy cant. Its more about the knowledge and reading/mind games (notice that I'm sure some combos will still be hard to do, so is expected). We assume everybody can/should do it, so why keep the newcomers or people with less ability and experience away from it? After trying the demo for myself, I came to the conclusion that I totally support the direction the developers are taking with Guilty Gear. Even tho I'm not really thrilled with "Danger Time" I'm ok with it to some degree because I see that they are trying to add new mechanics to make the game more appealing and dynamic. "Guilty Gear Xrd Sign" is my favorite title of the franchise. Also note that even if you complain a lot, most likely it wont do anything. For the time being, we are just the meager target audience for the game. This game's main target is Japan and so they will listen more to their voices than us. That is unless you actually go and participate in their discussions etc.
TD Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 What is with all these posts about the game's difficulty and what not?! Honestly, I think the elitist attitude of people who want the game to remain extremely complicated (not mechanics but inputs, YRC and etc) is rather a disadvantage that will only hurt the game itself. Having things like FRC and no buffering only keeps people away from the game because it's too hard and you have to practice those demanded things over and over and over. What is the point of training in succession those things that only prevents the players to access higher level game play? The point is to get in and help everybody do it. After all, high level game play does not revolve around this guy can do an extension and this guy cant. Its more about the knowledge and reading/mind games (notice that I'm sure some combos will still be hard to do, so is expected). We assume everybody can/should do it, so why keep the newcomers or people with less ability and experience away from it? After trying the demo for myself, I came to the conclusion that I totally support the direction the developers are taking with Guilty Gear. Even tho I'm not really thrilled with "Danger Time" I'm ok with it to some degree because I see that they are trying to add new mechanics to make the game more appealing and dynamic. "Guilty Gear Xrd Sign" is my favorite title of the franchise. Also note that even if you complain a lot, most likely it wont do anything. For the time being, we are just the meager target audience for the game. This game's main target is Japan and so they will listen more to their voices than us. That is unless you actually go and participate in their discussions etc.Hmm, I'm not sure if you're on the same page as the rest of us. From what I've seen I do not think anyone is talking about how they want the game's complexity to be (whether they actually do want it simple or otherwise) - it's more of a debate on whether the game itself is simpler or still the same hardcore gg title. Whether the game is too hard or not is no one in here's fault. Even if people were saying they want the game a certain way, you've said it yourself, it is simply a wishlist and will establish nothing. Personally I like my games to stimulate me beyond the occasional tities and other varying degree of fan service, so if the game is hard, I like. That will not change the nature of the game in any way for any one. And, while I think nurturing newer players is a great pro the Internet provided in this era, NO one HAS to help ANYONE if they do not choose. No one should feel entitled to answers, lol. People just tend to be extremely generous. How many people get paid to spread information and coach people to play fighting games? This ain't Starcraft. Either way (because I'm probably sounding a bit harsher than intended), I do agree that the game should feel a bit more accessible, and it does seem so from what I have seen anyway. Who wouldn't want more people to spar with on a daily basis? Whether this is the best gg so far remains to be seen...
zaeris Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 You need to think about the reward of performing Frc, in most cases FRc provided flexible gameplay and at least innovative mix up option. Should these thing be easy probably not because we don't want everyone able to perform to tk youzansen FRC. Anyway frc isn't a demanding input since 3-1 frames links exist in many games. Back to xrd I don't have issu with the games itself but frc for all intent and purpose should be hard, more like muscle memory.
Uncivilized Elk Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Should these thing be easy probably not because we don't want everyone able to perform to tk youzansen FRC. Why exactly? And no, a couple of frames is very demanding for anyone who can't put 10 hours a week toward video games. Demanding things existing in many fighting games doesn't suddenly make them not demanding, it just makes it common trait of fighting games to be demanding. Why do you think FGs have such bad rep to beginners who shy away from them due to the entry barrier? Then add on the fact that there's a substantial amount of people who mainly play others through online, and even if +R had amazing online FRCs are still strict enough where a minuscule amount of lag would screw up a lot of people. (And wasting hours in training mode to try and get an FRC point down to high efficiency is about the most boring training mode thing I've ever tried to do.)
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 I like how this guy AllyOfJustice pops in this thread every month or so, spouts the same trollish, idiotic nonsense, gets himself banned for a week within 3 or so posts after getting his privileges back, and we are still talking about that crap while he isn't even here. Game is great, if you don't have the demo and you have a PS4, get it soon before the trial period ends. So very beautiful, and if you have any doubts about the gameplay, most of them should be laid to rest after playing.
Leopold Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Why exactly? And no, a couple of frames is very demanding for anyone who can't put 10 hours a week toward video games. Demanding things existing in many fighting games doesn't suddenly make them not demanding, it just makes it common trait of fighting games to be demanding. Why do you think FGs have such bad rep to beginners who shy away from them due to the entry barrier? Then add on the fact that there's a substantial amount of people who mainly play others through online, and even if +R had amazing online FRCs are still strict enough where a minuscule amount of lag would screw up a lot of people. (And wasting hours in training mode to try and get an FRC point down to high efficiency is about the most boring training mode thing I've ever tried to do.) Totally agree with this! Its really pointless and it only keeps people away from being able to play the game itself.
Anne Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Yeah this conversation is really just going to go in the same circles it has always gone.
Ziggy_Stardust Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 I though we were done with these "LOL XRD IS DIFFERENT, FUK DIS GAME" posts.
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