Dustloop Matchup Chart Project

[Digital Watches]

Since we're to the phase where people are talking about tier lists, I decided to make a matchup chart for +R that's maintained by Dustloop. It also conveniently doubles as a way to have a tier list that's done with a normal distribution, instead of by some stupid arbitrary metric no one's ever been able to explain to me coherently.

Here's a spreadsheet. It's public and can be edited by anyone (That might change later, I dunno)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1MmNKSkE#gid=0

So basically, fill in matchups if you believe that you have a reasonable idea of what they are. Remember to fill in the matchup both ways (IE 7-3 FA-IN is 3-7 IN-FA), so the chart stays correct. Tiers are determined by how many standard deviations in total power the character is from the mean. Mean power is B-tier, and 1 SD = 1 letter. Character power is just a simple measure derived from the sum of all that character's matchups.

Aaaand we can use this thread or the spreadsheet to discuss logistics, argue about matchups, etc.

[Rhannmah]

nice initiative, but where is this matchup information coming from, though?

[Rhiya]

JP BBS, DL members who are in Japan, etc.

[Digital Watches]

I dunno, where does it ever come from? If we get better information than we have, we can update it.

[Hellmonkey]

Baiken vs Potemkin is supposedly 6-4 for Baiken now? Not sure about some of the numbers in that chart. When this kind of stuff is posted there needs to be some source material (bbs thread or first discussion and then a chart). People in the bbs thread will 'sum up' the chart with a lot of personal bias. Open editing may not be the best method here.

The idea itself is great though. Match-up specifics are significantly more productive to discuss than an ambiguous tier chart.

I don't think there are enough Dustloop members with access to competition in AC+R to really help with this kind of project yet.

[AtTheGates]

as much as i appreciate the effort, i don't think this is gonna work. the range of skill levels in gg is quite wide and i find it hard to make definite statements about matchups even in the cases where i think i know them well, simply because of the fact that on the highest level, stuff might look quite different than it does on average-high level (chipp vs pot being a good example).

[Kurushii]

I'd like to add that MU charts are released every so often in Arcadia magazine. Their MU charts are taking the opinions from the top Jp players.

[AtTheGates]

I'd like to add that MU charts are released every so often in Arcadia magazine. Their MU charts are taking the opinions from the top Jp players.

that's the matchup information that i find the most interesting, both on its own as well as compared to that of other top players which might or might not contradict it. mixing it with random bbs stuff and people's own opinions doesn't seem like a good idea though.

[BladeOfJustice7]

I can't agree with Order Sol having the advantage now against Ky, I'd say it's even now. I would also have to say Ky vs kliff is 6-4 in Kliff's favor, obviously in my opinion.

[Digital Watches]

that's the matchup information that i find the most interesting, both on its own as well as compared to that of other top players which might or might not contradict it. mixing it with random bbs stuff and people's own opinions doesn't seem like a good idea though.

I'd definitely say we should use that information when possible. It's just frustrating to not have information aggregated and the statistics transparent somewhere. This being a dustloop resource doesn't mean it's information primarily from dustloop members, just that it's something we can maintain in order to have a useful and current set of information at a given time.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Digital Watches

[Star-Demon]

I hate seeing a ton of 5s. I hate discussing 5-5 matchups. People always do the same thing - you start trying to figure out some real differences and stuff and suddenly:

"Well it's even lol it's your own fault just play better BYE!"

5-5 is a copout to people discussing the match.

And then there's this game, where people ultimately dodge discussing the matchups entirely because they strongly believe Guilty Gear is balanced and has the depth so that none of it matters, usually going to Slashback or something.

It's so enormously frustrating when people are so passionate about this game but always abort any conversation about it.

Anyways, fucking Baiken with 4 slightly bad matchups and one good one in Potemkin - LOL. This chart needs a lot more input from players.

This game has been out for how long and we still have so little to discuss? We need someone to infiltrate Japanese discussion on this.

[Amadeus46Art]

Looking at the changes for the Jam matchups, I'll try to defend my choices here:

v A.B.A. 6-4, Jam's Favor:

Jam's definitely got an advantage in this matchup. In normal mode, Jam can run circles around A.B.A. and freely charge, while A.B.A. is forced to go for a grab or a lucky 6H if she doesn't want to burn a blood pack. Once A.B.A. gets Moroha mode, it's not even that much of an advantage to her. A.B.A.'s Moroha pressure still lacks many lows in it and is full of frame traps, giving Jam opportunities to parry out of A.B.A.'s pressure. In addition, Jam still controls the pacing through her higher movement. While she can't go toe-to-toe with A.B.A.'s large normals, she can easily whiff punish anything that A.B.A. throws out. Finally, ALL of Jam's confirms easily get her knockdown, and she has a strong enough oki game to put A.B.A. in a vortex leading to more knockdowns (which means A.B.A. gets IK'd a lot in this MU).

v Bridget 6-4, Jam's Favor:

This matchup hasn't really changed much from GGAC as far as I can tell. Bridget's damage is still rather low, and while Jam can't use FBPB as the threat it was, she still controls the space very well with jS and normal puffballs. One good counter-hit and Bridget's lifebar is kissed goodbye. Bridget has to play a defensive poking game and let Jam hang herself, but if she gets in Bridget's life got a whole lot harder (and shorter).

v Eddie 5.5-4.5, Jam's Favor:

The most basic way I can explain this is that the general gameplan of the matchup didn't change much from AC; Jam runs away when little Eddie is out, looks for an opening, gets in and tears big Eddie a new one...the difference is now is that Jam's allowed to make more than one mistake. Eddie's pressure is still terrifying (if not moreso with Exhaustion), but his damage nerf and harder time to do unblockables means Jam's got more of a chance when she's on defense. And like always, Jam wins when she's on the offense against him, and Eddie can't get out once she is in.

v Kliff 6.5-3.5, Jam's Favor:

Honestly, this MU could be even worse for Kliff than what I listed it as, but I'm keeping moderate for now. Kliff has no option against Jam keeping distance and charging, and in neutral Kliff's gameplan of "float around a lot and use jH" gets parried easily. Fighting Kliff is best thought as fighting a very slow Moroha mode A.B.A.: he has very large normals that you will lose to if you rush in at him, but they have long recovery and can easily be beaten. His low stun rating and his general "weightlessness" while being comboed also means Jam can really unload damage on him during a wall loop.

One MU I don't agree with, and I'd like to see explained:

v Order-Sol 5.5-4.5, Jam's Favor:

After playing this matchup

a lot

I feel like it's closer to even than it ever was in GGAC. HOS is much more solid now, being able to keep momentum during pressure and carry it through combos, along with his damage output being much scarier. In the neutral game, his 2D and 2S give Jam's ground game a hard time, while Gun Blaze keeps her in check coming in from the air. While his pressure is generally open to parries, the HOS can adapt to use more lows in his pressure, and at 25 meter the threat of Fafnir is very much a deterrent to parrying. I'd say this MU is closer to

5-5

than it was in AC.

[AtTheGates]

some food for thought: the overall matchup charts that are collected from all cabs that are hooked up to the network in japan list justice as no. 1, but nobody would argue that she is top tier. second place goes to potemkin. the pattern here? ease of use. ky, sol and hos are among the most popular characters, but are close to the bottom of win %, which is obvious considering that beginners generally pick those characters up when they first play. also, this list takes all levels into account, since it incorporates data from anyone that has a profile, regardless of their skill level. so the tier list that this constitutes basically says "this is your chance to win against a random opponent in a random japanese arcade". what's our approach?

[qwerty]

I was the one who initially filled out Johnny, Order-Sol, and Zappa's matchups. They're based on experience (I play all three, OS and ZA as subs obviously) and what I've observed at Mikado and various other arcades. It seems that someone's already changed a few things I put in there, but whatever.

I wouldn't put too much stock in any matchup chart for this game to be honest, since most matchups are about even (though to touch on Star-Demon's post above, that is not justification for just saying "WELL IT'S EVEN" or "GAME IS BALANCED") and the bad matchups are quite obviously bad.

[Amadeus46Art]

Aaaaaaaaaand somebody went and vandalized it. Well that didn't take long.

[sinder]

Ok this thread is already on its way to being deleted

Aaaaaaaaaand somebody went and vandalized it. Well that didn't take long.

Took care of it . I would definitely remove the public edit property from this spreadsheet. This idea can be very successful, but you don't need a seer to know that it's well on it's way to going downhill.

You should have reserved some spots for your posts because now there are going to be a ton of justifications for select character MU and it's going to look very unorganized. Also, if it is a dustloop project there should be some general consensus between the members here, and making it easy for anyone to edit will make it very difficult for there to be a "set" MU chart

Great idea, but I would start all over because even though this thread is on page 2 it's already looking like this idea will flop. Just giving you a heads up before somebody ends up closing this thread for the same reason(s). Put more rules in place to keep this thread tidy and it will be very successful and more helpful to dustloop and especially non dustloop members who may be interested in picking up GG

~Dread

Edited September 2, 2013 by sinder

[Digital Watches]

Good thing googledocs is version-controlled so we can fix vandalism trivially. As far as organizational stuff, I consider this to be in early development since we don't have a good basis of information yet. Once the chart is more filled out, we can worry about secondary stuff like making a nice thread for it.

I do agree that public edit probably should end though.

So that's as good a thing to talk about here as any. What should the basis by which we allow edits to this spreadsheet be? It's certainly not going to be "anyone with a dustloop account."

[BladeOfJustice7]

GG mods, players who have GG tournament trophies, and DL members who have GG trophies. In my view.

[Kurushii]

Why single it out to just the English community? Access to communicating with the Japanese community is there. Reach out and ask them their view on match-ups.

[tataki]

Why single it out to just the English community? Access to communicating with the Japanese community is there. Reach out and ask them their view on match-ups.

What I'd like to see instead of one ambiguous matchup chart, is to get in touch with a top JP player for a character, and ask him about the matchups of his character. And maybe to add a comment or two about special matchups. Rinse repeat for as many top players as you can contact. Maybe it's just me but I like knowing the source for each piece of data...

[Digital Watches]

Elvenshadow or someone else in japan/in contact with japanese players would be our best angle to do that I'd imagine.

[Jakestation]

Made changes to faust matchups which i'm mostly familiar. Of course Nage and Kiisha are very strong players overall so they might make some matchup look way easier than they actually are. I think faust is having bad times against Kliff and Millia thou. Before Kliff nerfs Faust was always losing. It was like 6.5-3.5 for Kliff, but now it feels way better.

[Eshi]

I really want to update Justice's match-ups for ones I have experience with but I don't feel I'm a good enough player to do so without collaboration, so I feel guilty. I'll post my thoughts her for discussion. I'd love to get your feedback on it, Digital Watches =3

vs. ABA: 6 - 4, maybe a tad more even

Easy to handle. ABA can't deal with mix-up in normal mode and she can't deal with zoning in Moroha mode, has to get lucky with a 6HS or 2D. All of Justice's combos knock down and her IK is very fast when she's within range. Only time ABA is scary is if she gets in but she only really has frame traps and okizeme fuzzy guard (backdash is really good here).

vs. Anji: 5 - 5, maybe in Anji's favor

His footsies with f.Slash are hella annoying due to its range, speed and guard point. FB butterfly unblockable is super free. IAD jP is surprisingly good at getting in, maybe K missile should be her default over P missile? He can guard point meaty P missile so Justice's oki isn't free. But hey, once he's full screen he can't do shit about missiles. FB butterfly ignores projectiles but it feels like a waste of meter.

vs. Dizzy: 3.5 - 6.5, maybe a tad worse

Dizzy's ice spike punishes missile free and her zoning goes around missiles easily. Justice is forced to approach and play footsies for fairly mediocre reward until she can finally set up her basic okizeme. Also Dizzy's oki is crazy good. Justice has some decent tools to deal with fish but most of them require meter. TON manages to handle this match-up decently well though, so it could be a little better maybe?

vs. Zappa: ? - ?

Zappa is really fucking good but I'm not sure if it's 7-3. The only time it feels 7-3 to me is when he has sword. Ghost block strings are godlike but Justice can smack him out of zoning with her footsies and he loses the advantage. Dog is bad because of f.Slash. Raoh is worse than Sword. I play with Zoogstin and he's had less time with +R than me.

vs. Potemkin: in Justice's favor by some amount

TON makes the match-up look extremely free. Potemkin's oki is extremely scary... if he gets in. K missile completely avoids flick and hits multiple times so it beats hammer fall. He can only slide head, if a missile isn't already out. If she doesn't have missile, she can still lock him out with f.Slash footsies. If Justice needs to rush down, 6P is a 10 frame overhead.

[Amadeus46Art]

Eshi, I've got a bit of Justice EXP, so I'll try to get Jam's perspective on the matchup (we should play sometime though, I really do need to learn that one a bit more).

Jam v Justice: 5.5 - 4.5 Jam's Favor

Dunno too much about Justice's footsies or pressure but it feels like Jam can parry any Michael Sword blockstring ender. Gives Jam time to get in and start her pressure, possibly can get a punish especially if Justice does H Michael for whatever reason. At long ranges Jam can just 22D and get free cards before any missiles get close to her. She's got good run speed which means she can dash and superjump to get a bit farther in and can just maneuver through the "Forest of Explosives" to get into a good position.

Seems to be a space where Justice still wants to be firing missiles, because she's just outside of her fS poking range that Jam with cards can abuse. Justice can 22P/22K and hold to make the missile pressure Jam, BUT Jam can do 236D and kick Justice in the face and hit her before the missile detonates. Justice CAN though just tap the button and it'll detonate at point blank range, stuffing Jam if she tries to do 236D. Either way it seems to be a fairly risky guessing game for both characters cause if Jam hits Justice is getting looped but if Jam gets hit Justice can confirm into a full combo and send Jam back to the other side of the screen (where she'll charge cards and do the whole thing over again).

On the defensive Justice can't really do much other than try to use S.B.T.'s foot invul to try to beat 5K but I don't even know if that works. Once Jam gets in she's gonna make Justice cry I think. If the Jam can Burst Cancel*, I think this matchup is a LOOOOOOOT easier for her too. Burst Cancel against a random missile -> okay now I'm gonna run up and punch you in the face.

*An advanced technique Jam players can use. It's essentially FD cancelling a burst using Jam's parry. So parry -> burst -> FD during burst startup (before Jam leaves the ground). Doing so returns Jam to neutral, but she retains all the invulnerability of the gold burst. You might've seen it in combo videos or such for Jam to get out of Millia oki, Robo Totem Missiles, Dark Angel, etc etc.

[Eshi]

*An advanced technique Jam players can use. It's essentially FD cancelling a burst using Jam's parry. So parry -> burst -> FD during burst startup (before Jam leaves the ground). Doing so returns Jam to neutral, but she retains all the invulnerability of the gold burst. You might've seen it in combo videos or such for Jam to get out of Millia oki, Robo Totem Missiles, Dark Angel, etc etc.

Holy shit that is insane. I don't know if this will work on missiles though. I watched Skeletal Minion test slashback on missiles and for some reason he still got hit even after successfully executing it AND still holding back. Missiles are weird.

I've played one Jam player but he really didn't understand how to approach the match-up so you've given me quite a bit to think about.