Lucalibur Posted October 26, 2013 Posted October 26, 2013 I have been trying this guy out lately(lately being subjective since I've only played the game for about 2 days) and I agree his 5B's hitbox is the most disgusting thing. Thankfully, his 2B and 6B have just barely workable hitboxes. Only a masochist would try playing footsies with them, though. He feels really...clumsy to play? It's like all he can space with are Cs and the occasional D, and whiffing any of them is suicide. 6D~C did help a lot against zoners, though, and it seems to be fairly safe at max range due to the sheer pushback and distance it puts both chars between. I could be wrong, though. Overall I don't really know what to do with this guy yet. I had a bunch of matches yesterday and I am SLOWLY getting used to the nature of his attacks, but it's still gonna take some time to memorize everything and learn to stop trying to hit anything with 5B, because it won't hit anything no matter what I do.
Bill307 Posted October 26, 2013 Posted October 26, 2013 (edited) Idk why 5B being air-unblockable is hilarious to me, I cant get that shit to hit grounded people let alone someone air-borne xD To me, the real question is, why is 5DB air-unblockable? Now I'm relatively new to BB, but I really don't see how a ground command grab can be air-unblockable. :p I'm guessing it's a typo? Edit: a Japanese player tweeted the frame disadvantage (and info I can't read) for Kagura's drives: https://twitter.com/kamoihito/status/394099611813437441 カグラ視点 5DA -19 5DAdc -3 5DAbdc -11 6DA -10 2DA(中段) -27 5DA(コマ投げ) 発生23全体63 6DB -8(自動でギリガになり-11) 2DB(初段下段) -9 5DC -16 6DC -9 2DC(2段目下段) -9 Basically, the only thing that's actually safe on block is 5DA 66 (except against Tager?). 2DC and 6DC are also safe if the opponent is pushed far enough away. Edited October 26, 2013 by Bill307
onemic Posted October 26, 2013 Posted October 26, 2013 It seems like his oki(maybe playstyle) is similar to Millia's in GG. Is that a wrong assumption?
Ryukaiser Posted October 26, 2013 Posted October 26, 2013 I can't wait to get started learning this game. Kagura is going to be one a great character seems like. Dragon Emperor
Lucalibur Posted October 26, 2013 Posted October 26, 2013 Alright, so I have been trying to do one of the combos listed on the combo thread: 6A > 6B > 3C > 2D~C > 5D~A > dash 5B > 6B > 5C > 4[]6B (projectile hit) > 6C > 2D~A > 6D~A > 5D~28D (4791 DM) But I can't get the 5D~A into dash cancelled 5B to work. I always end up on the other side, just going below the enemy. I can still follow up but with a different, much less damaging combo and I don't really like that. Any tips for not getting 5B to crossup when really close to the corner?
LordSpectreX Posted October 26, 2013 Posted October 26, 2013 Alright, so I have been trying to do one of the combos listed on the combo thread: 6A > 6B > 3C > 2D~C > 5D~A > dash 5B > 6B > 5C > 4[]6B (projectile hit) > 6C > 2D~A > 6D~A > 5D~28D (4791 DM) But I can't get the 5D~A into dash cancelled 5B to work. I always end up on the other side, just going below the enemy. I can still follow up but with a different, much less damaging combo and I don't really like that. Any tips for not getting 5B to crossup when really close to the corner? After the dash, hold 4, you'll stay on the right side and will start changing, the following motions after the dash is basically 4BB>4C>4[]6B.
Kimchi Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 I don't know if this was pointed out but it seems that his J.C has a distinct landing recovery where you can't do any inputs; meaning if it is blocked, you are definitely unsafe.
-Seo Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 I don't know if this was pointed out but it seems that his J.C has a distinct landing recovery where you can't do any inputs; meaning if it is blocked, you are definitely unsafe. You're unsafe if you do it real early in your jump or airdash in with it, but if you do it deep enough into your jump, I think you may be plus (granted probably only +1 or 2). I've been in the habit of canceling j.C's into 5D(4or1)A to catch people trying to punish the landing recovery.
stickystaines Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 Almost every Kagura on stream has been doing super low damaging combos. Get out the lab and into the stream lads!
MikelAL93 Posted October 27, 2013 Author Posted October 27, 2013 Almost every Kagura on stream has been doing super low damaging combos. Get out the lab and into the stream lads! We are still on week 1 of BBCP console and Kagura, so expect everything to change by then, including high damaging combos. :P
Lucalibur Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 After having a few more matches using this guy, I feel the need to ask if it's just me who is finding his neutral game extremely awkward. Maybe I'm not using his projectile enough, or maybe I just suck at this. I know part of the fault is J.C's terrible hitbox for its speed and landing recovery, though. That being said, I just don't know what I should be doing. It's like every time I use him I just hope to god I hit with a random C. By all means, the stagger and 1K damage is great, but I can't find any neutral utility for any of his moves other than 5C, 2C, 6C(anti-air), J.C(I need to stop using this), and orb. I would really like some help with knowing what I'm suppose to be doing in neutral. His defensive games is also a bit awkward to me due to the charged DP. I have to stop charging if it I want to block an overhead. Obviously you could say I should just DP instead, but it sadly ain't that simple in practice, because blocking an overhead on reaction is just so much easier than DPing out of it. There is also the fact his normals are either too slow or short ranged, so I can't even mash out of poor pressure properly(Not that mashing is a good strategy, but sometimes you gotta rape the 2A). I don't know, maybe it's just me. We're still in week 1 after all. I'm probably just being stupid, but I would like to know what I should be doing with this guy.
Phones01 Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 I like using J.b more due to it being able to cross up. when I use J.c i cancel it to jd 5da and dash to make it somewhat safe but it's still risky to a DP. B projectile is ok for neutral game if they block it for whateve reason you can go for 5b or 6a since the B projectile is big enough to cover you.
Bill307 Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 (edited) I think Kagura's neutral sucks. The landing recovery of j.C is a huge pain: sometimes I'm at frame disadvantage if it's blocked. I expect playing Kagura will require a lot of patience at neutral. A well-timed 6DC can get you in or at least closer, but you can't just throw it out against an experienced opponent. Anyway, I finished compiling my list of which drives frame trap into each other. I looked at both normal block and IB and noted which drive chains actually combo or are punishable on hit (because the 2nd drive whiffs). I still need to format it nicely, so for now, here's the "short list" of drive frame-traps: Tight chains: 5DC: 2DB 6DC: 2DB Frame traps: 5DA: 6DC, 2DB, 2DC 5DC: 6DC, 2DC 6DA: 5DC, 2DB 6DC: 5DC, 2DC 2DA: 5DA, 5DC, 6DC 2DC: 5DA, 5DC, 6DC Trades with Noel 5A and beats Noel 2A: 6DA: 2DC 6DB: 2DB Other special properties: 6DA, 6DB, 6DC, 2DB: 5DA - beats Noel 5A, beats Noel 2A, loses to Noel 2B due to armor vs mid/high attacks 5DA, 5DC, 6DA, 6DB, 6DC: 2DA - loses to mid/high attack hitboxes, beats Noel 2A due to lower body invul 5DC, 2DA, 2DC: 6DB - loses to Noel 5A, loses to Noel 2A, beats Noel 2B, may trade with or lose to Noel 2B 2B mash Note: whenever 6DB is blocked, it's always IB. Judging from my results, his fastest drive is 2DB. His 2nd-fastest drive is 6DC, which is 1 frame faster than 5DC and 2DC. All his other drives are slow. (Edit: fixed a few things I was unsure about.) Edited October 27, 2013 by Bill307
FatalCounter Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 (edited) So, is his jC recovery like Mu jC recovery (4) or worse, maybe you should use it when landing, because I saw some people use it pretty early in the air. jB seems legit though. I don't think we should use his DP on wakeup unless we are taking some risk or we have meter for RC. What I saw one good Kagura player so far, He blocks and then DP whenever his opponent try to do another mixup, since any move that isn't a blosckstring is beaten. I don't know, I don't have the game yet (Monday) but I am taking notes, keep posting guys!!!! Edited October 27, 2013 by FatalCounter
Kakimori Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 He definitely has head games for days, which I like. Since I just got the game (I suppose everybody did), what are the basic combos or habits that I should start getting into now?
MikelAL93 Posted October 27, 2013 Author Posted October 27, 2013 He definitely has head games for days, which I like. Since I just got the game (I suppose everybody did), what are the basic combos or habits that I should start getting into now? Check out the combo thread and the sample combo videos available in the combo thread, they will help you with anything you need.
Lucalibur Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 J.B's hitbox is great for mixups, but it's just way too small for neutral IMO. His neutral game really feels like shit right now, what makes me sad because when I first tried him out I expected his neutral to at least be decent with the range of those Cs. Guess this guy is really momentum heavy at the end of the day, and sadly he is bad at getting momentum. J.C's landing recovery needs to go away, because that would help A LOT.
LordSpectreX Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 So, is his jC recovery like Mu jC recovery (4) or worse, maybe you should use it when landing, because I saw some people use it pretty early in the air. jB seems legit though. I don't think we should use his DP on wakeup unless we are taking some risk or we have meter for RC. What I saw one good Kagura player so far, He blocks and then DP whenever his opponent try to do another mixup, since any move that isn't a blosckstring is beaten. I don't know, I don't have the game yet (Monday) but I am taking notes, keep posting guys!!!! The J.C recovery is absolutely pitiful, I'm still shocked sometimes how I can whiff it and how much time they have to punish it. Combine that with it's very mediocre hitbox and you have a move and you can't really abuse. J.B is a lot safer, but it's probably has about the same size hitbox as Mu's J.B. Well, DPing on wakeup is always a risk. Any option you do on wakeup has a risk to it, even blocking. However, it's easily one of the best DPs in the game, prehaps even the best, it's very important to make people scared of it and realise it's potential. The more people hesistate and try to bait your DP, the more oppotunities you have to escape by simply jumping out or starting pressure of your own.
MikelAL93 Posted October 27, 2013 Author Posted October 27, 2013 First post updated with links to story discussion and Kagura Mutsuki group for off-topic discussion. But yeah, when you are DPing on wakeup (Kagura's flash kick in this case), remember to do it when you feel that your opponent is about to attack you or jumping towards you with a special or normal for a reversal attack, a key element in fighting games. Another tip I want to give for new and upcoming Kagura players is that using [4]6A/B is great for his keep away game and zoning (be wary of the projectile, as it disappears when you are hit or after it reaches a certain distance). It is also useful for extending 2DA and ground throw combos. [2]8C, on the other hand is better used as a combo ender much like his distortions ([4]1236C and D28D), as extending combos with them is pretty pointless. If any of you have questions for Kagura, be sure you check out or post in the Q&A/FAQ thread.
-Seo Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 A thing to note about [4]6B, is that the further it travels the more durability it will lose, at max it does 5 hits, but I've had it travel far enough to just do 1.
Bill307 Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 Here's what I've got so far: Table of Kagura drive frame traps Feedback is welcome! TODO: test frame traps from 5C/2C/3C/6C.
LoVeBirD- Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 What's up fellow Kaguras! Quick Tip #1 - We know that when doing his stances moves in the air, he falls to the ground and does them. However, you can control which direction he falls to the ground to do the move. Neutral he will just fall straight, but you can use 3 (A B or C) or 1 (A B or C) to have him dive in those directions before he does the move. Might be useful in crossups?
Random Naoto Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 Does anyone have frame data for this character yet? If not I'll try to get some of it when I get back from work.
MikelAL93 Posted October 27, 2013 Author Posted October 27, 2013 What's up fellow Kaguras! Quick Tip #1 - We know that when doing his stances moves in the air, he falls to the ground and does them. However, you can control which direction he falls to the ground to do the move. Neutral he will just fall straight, but you can use 3 (A B or C) or 1 (A B or C) to have him dive in those directions before he does the move. Might be useful in crossups? This is actually pretty helpful for crossups, as these make good use of his j.D when doing them in the said direction. Thanks for sharing. Does anyone have frame data for this character yet? If not I'll try to get some of it when I get back from work. As far as I know, we don't have any frame data available for Kagura as of right now. Unless if Famitsu were to do the same thing for BBCP like they did with P4U where frame data came out two months after JP console release, then we hopefully will have accurate frame data on the way.
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