Chrono Phantasma Speculations/Theories [rules updated 10/14]

[Toxin45]

In case you guys forgot, Yukianesa was in Seven's possession before.

Also Yukianesa never appeared within the church's territory until the day of the tragedy.

Your right but on that topic There was Phantom too so she could have been the one to give Saya yukianasa.

Also now I'm pretty sure Izanami is possessing her.

[Zedar90]

Your right but on that topic There was Phantom too so she could have been the one to give Saya yukianasa.

Also now I'm pretty sure Izanami is possessing her.

I don't think Phantom existed before the CS since Nine's soul is bound to the vessel by Izanami, and thus can't be phantom until Izanami is awoken.

[Toxin45]

I don't think Phantom existed before the CS since Nine's soul is bound to the vessel by Izanami, and thus can't be phantom until Izanami is awoken.

Really even before she got awaken she followed Terumi and Relius.

Also I doubt she was sleeping forever she might be doing that to wait until the Time Loops are over and that Tamhawkgara are distracted.

Also I'm staring to wonder what Rachel really is as a phantom of time CP could Clavis and Amateratsu have something to do with that?

Edited January 22, 2014 by Toxin45

[Shinhwa]

I don't know, It might be Celica, he said after all (did the "charm"(お守り) work after all?), since they have Celica around Ragna so that Ragna can't be seen with "observation". But why didn't he want to use this method?

One other possibility would be that they wanted Hazama to be concentrated on Homura, he did show Homura to Bang the night before.

Or it might have to do with the whole "the world's eyes" that they collected during the Tournament.

But he was surprised when Kokonoe said she couldn't detect any "Green" at all in the area.

I only made a quick look since I don't remember to well, might soon replay it again and look closer after hints.

Now that I think about it, what is the "World's Eyes" in the first place...?

I don't think Phantom existed before the CS since Nine's soul is bound to the vessel by Izanami, and thus can't be phantom until Izanami is awoken.

Not sure if this should be taken in as a consideration, but Phantom was shown in Alter Memory before Izanami woke up.

However, I doubt Phantom even existed in the day of the tragedy considering that was before Izanami even possessed Saya fully and had her powers at its prime. Pretty sure Phantom was created during the time period between the tragedy's aftermath and before a few years before CT.

The day of the tragedy is still shrouded in mystery. That's for sure.

Chronophantasma doesn't mean that it is a clone, it means that they have some how got "out of course" from the planned "future". Also, Rachel and Celica isn't the same type of Chronophantasma. Rachel is a "Phantom of Time" and Celica is a "Someone that shouldn't exist"

Someone who got out of course from the planned future...

Wait... doesn't this somehow remind you of the line Rachel said in Episode 14?

Rachel told Ragna that if he goes through the Doorway to the Zero and learn the truth/gain the knowledge, his future will become decided. Doesn't this mean if he were to go out of the planned/decided future, he would fall into the same category if he were to do such feat?

For example, if Ragna's decided future is death due to the influence of the Azure Grimoire where he will also turn into a Black Beast because of it, but somehow he is able to overcome such situation, wouldn't that count as "go out of course from the planned future"?

If this is the case, I think there is a high possibility that he will be able to do this.

The World, or to be precise Amaterasu is in need of the Guardian of the Azure. The only candidate to become it is Ragna. This makes me wonder if one of the requirements to become it is to overcome a decided future that's really deadly towards the candidate (Death).

Edited January 22, 2014 by Shinhwa

[Zedar90]

Now that I think about it, what is the "World's Eyes" in the first place...?

Someone who got out of course from the planned future...

Wait... doesn't this somehow remind you of the line Rachel said in Episode 14?

Rachel told Ragna that if he goes through the Doorway to the Zero and learn the truth/gain the knowledge, his future will become decided. Doesn't this mean if he were to go out of the planned/decided future, he would fall into the same category if he were to do such feat?

The worlds eyes is simply that when most of the Humans watch the same thing it becomes hard to make an intervention. That is why they also brought Ragna there to the Tournament, who want to miss the opportunity to see Ragna? Most people watch, too many people see the same thing, hard to change the event using Phenomenon Intervention.

Hard to say, But Izanami called Ragna "someone that should exist" when Rachel send her back which is the opposite of what Celica is.

Also about Noel, we have heard so many time that she shouldn't exist, so Isn't Noel also a Chronophantasma?

[Shinhwa]

That's the thing I am confused about Noel.

It's a fact that Noel did not exist in some Timeloops. Tsubaki was always the assistant of Jin in those timeloops, and she always died there (Hence why Hazama calls her trash that only knows how to get killed).

The thing is how Noel did exist in some timeloops but did not exist in some others. So it's like a pattern somewhat.

CT did show several different timeloops where Noel existed except she got killed by various factors (Pissed Jin, Black Beast Ragna, etc.)

Did I mention that in the novel, during the time when Noel was getting smelted in Ibukido, she was calling out for her Nii-sama for help?

Fact is that Noel lost her memories after Take-Mikazuchi's attack on Ibukido, so it seems that before Take-Mikazuchi's attack she had pretty much remembered everything as Saya.

[Zedar90]

That's the thing I am confused about Noel.

It's a fact that Noel did not exist in some Timeloops. Tsubaki was always the assistant of Jin in those timeloops, and she always died there (Hence why Hazama calls her trash that only knows how to get killed).

The thing is how Noel did exist in some timeloops but did not exist in some others. So it's like a pattern somewhat.

CT did show several different timeloops where Noel existed except she got killed by various factors (Pissed Jin, Black Beast Ragna, etc.)

Did I mention that in the novel, during the time when Noel was getting smelted in Ibukido, she was calling out for her Nii-sama for help?

Fact is that Noel lost her memories after Take-Mikazuchi's attack on Ibukido, so it seems that before Take-Mikazuchi's attack she had pretty much remembered everything as Saya.

But that is what I mean with Noel being a Chronophantsma, her future has changed, she was supposed to die in Ibukido, but due to all the looping a distortion have been created resulting in her surviving.

[Toxin45]

The worlds eyes is simply that when most of the Humans watch the same thing it becomes hard to make an intervention. That is why they also brought Ragna there to the Tournament, who want to miss the opportunity to see Ragna? Most people watch, too many people see the same thing, hard to change the event using Phenomenon Intervention.

Hard to say, But Izanami called Ragna "someone that should exist" when Rachel send her back which is the opposite of what Celica is.

Also about Noel, we have heard so many time that she shouldn't exist, so Isn't Noel also a Chronophantasma?

So Celica is the duplicate while Rachel is a phantoms of time. Although Rachel's body could be a vessal for the actual rachel similar to how Hazama/Kazuma was for Terumi.

So that pretty much means Saya is Noel.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Toxin45

[Shinhwa]

But that is what I mean with Noel being a Chronophantsma, her future has changed, she was supposed to die in Ibukido, but due to all the looping a distortion have been created resulting in her surviving.

Hmm.... considering she did tell that "Story" which also did pertain to Chronophantasmas, to Noel and Celica (Although Ragna heard it too), it might hint something.

But what I am wondering is if all Chronophantasma (the ones similar to Rachel) are observers or only a few are observers while others still stay as actors.

[Toxin45]

Hmm.... considering she did tell that "Story" which also did pertain to Chronophantasmas, to Noel and Celica (Although Ragna heard it too), it might hint something.

But what I am wondering is if all Chronophantasma (the ones similar to Rachel) are observers or only a few are observers while others still stay as actors.

Like the final battle or something? I wound't be surprised about that Noel being revealed to be Saya and stopping Ragna and Jin's conflict.

Although I want to see Amateratsu from the outside of the machine.

[Zedar90]

Hmm.... considering she did tell that "Story" which also did pertain to Chronophantasmas, to Noel and Celica (Although Ragna heard it too), it might hint something.

But what I am wondering is if all Chronophantasma are observers or only a few are observers while others still stay as actors.

I don't think the Chorophantasma has anything to do with the power of observing. All that is known is that they are invisible to the "system" because they aren't supposed to exist (at least in Celica's case. I.e. the ones who shouldn't exist, 居ない筈の者) and those who is interacting with her becomes invisible as well. In Rachel's case (刻の幻影) she is immune to other's observer's(観測者) phenomenon Intervention.

居ない筈の者(Celica): Exist in a different Time Period then they should.

刻の幻影(Rachel): Have a different future then one should really have. There is exceptions However.

[Toxin45]

I don't think the Chorophantasma has anything to do with the power of observing. All that is known is that they are invisible to the "system" because they aren't supposed to exist (at least in Celica's case. I.e. the ones who shouldn't exist, 居ない筈の者) and those who is interacting with her becomes invisible as well. In Rachel's case (刻の幻影) she is immune to other's observes(観測者) phenomenon Intervention.

居ない筈の者(Celica): Exist in a different Time Period then they should.

刻の幻影(Rachel): Have a different future then one should really have. There is exceptions However.

So about thw whole Noel/Saya thing is she somewhat in the middle?

[Zedar90]

So about thw whole Noel/Saya thing is she somewhat in the middle?

Noel, if she is one, should be a Phantom of Time(刻の幻影). She isn't in a different time period, she has a different "future".

[Toxin45]

Noel, if she is one, should be a Phantom of Time(刻の幻影). She isn't in a different time period, she has a different "future".

The CP thing could it be that the master unit caused the CP thing.

[Shinhwa]

The whole concept behind Chronophantasma being not described in detail is somewhat confusing. Like how they even came to existence. Amaterasu might be one of the causes, but considering they are known as Phantom of Time and Those who has gone off from their original future, not too sure.

[heavymetalmixer]

The CP thing on Rachel makes question something: what is that future that she should have?

[Zedar90]

The CP thing on Rachel makes question something: what is that future that she should have?

Well, it is said that there is exceptions, maybe Rachel is one of them?

All that is known about Rachel's past is that she at one point cooperated with the Takamagahara-system and managed the boundary but for some reason stopped doing it.

[Shinhwa]

Maybe that was after the Dark War? Or when was this? After Clavis died?

On another topic, I seriously think Kagura means it when he asks Noel to become his 8D

[Toxin45]

Maybe that was after the Dark War? Or when was this? After Clavis died?

On another topic, I seriously think Kagura means it when he asks Noel to become his 8D

Yeah :)someone should have put that out all of the girls Noel and to some extend Mako Chan are his favorite women.

Although I think this was before the start of the Dark War.

[Zedar90]

Maybe that was after the Dark War? Or when was this? After Clavis died?

On another topic, I seriously think Kagura means it when he asks Noel to become his 8D

No, it can't have been after the dark war. After the Dark War was over Rachel immediately went to sleep and didn't wake up until after Ragna, Jin and Saya was at Sister's church.

It must have been before the Loop or at a earlier loop.

[Shinhwa]

Forgot about Rachel falling asleep after that....

[Toxin45]

Forgot about Rachel falling asleep after that....

hmm that's similar to Izanami sleeping.

[Shinhwa]

hmm that's similar to Izanami sleeping.

Not necessarily.

[Toxin45]

Not necessarily.

huh well the both sleep until that main events happened.

[Shinhwa]

The period of time they slept through is different.

And it isn't really known if Izanami was sleeping through the entire time till CS since the day she possessed Saya.

Due to the way Ikaruga Civil War went, it is possible Izanami was awake at the time.