[CP] Kokonoe - Oki Thread

[Kurushii]

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Information

• If you'd like to contribute, please feel free to do so! Just post the oki/setup you created, but please write them properly. If you are unsure on how to write notation properly, then read the wiki page here. Make sure to read the Notation Used section in this post so that you understand the specific notations used for Kokonoe. Also refrain from using move names and abbreviations.
• Make sure to mention what screen position and ender you used. Also if it works only on specific characters.
• Please refrain from going off topic in this thread. This thread is for posting and discussion of oki only.

Collapsed: General Notations Used:

[table]
>Gatling/cancel the previous move into the following move.
,Link the previous move into the following move.
|>After landing.
jJump
sjSuper Jump
adAir Dash
iadInstant Air Dash
jcJump Cancel
sjcSuper Jump Cancel
CHCounter Hit
FCFatal Counter
RCRapid Cancel
ODOverdrive
cODOverdrive Cancel
[ ]Hold Input
(N)Attack must deal N amount of hits.
[???] xNRepeat ??? N amount of times.[/table]

Collapsed: Guide Specific Notations Used:

• Notations in pink are for prefixes only. Notations in blue are for suffixes only.

[table]
c.The attack must be used as close to the opponent as possible.
f.The attack must be used as far away from the opponent as possible.
[sS]Side Swap combo
[CO]Crouching Opponent
[AA]Anti-air or Air-to-Air
[RP]Roll Punish
[HP<N%]Player HP less than N% required before combo start. Needed only for Overdrive combos.
[N%]Player Heat % required before combo start.
[ND]Graviton on the field before the combo starts. Changing N to the specific graviton input.
[N/N%]Damage/Heat Gain %[/table]

[Kurushii]

Archived Discussion:

so kokonoe's black hole super (juuryoku - 632146d) is unblockable, drags in, has tons of invuln, and catches airborne opponents. by itself it does 1200 dmg only, but you can combo off of it in 2 ways - 2 hit black hole, which means starting the combo prorated and with 0 damage, or 3 hit, which requires a tight link (hit them as soon as they touch the ground) but grants 1200 dmg to start of combo while increasing proration

anyone, for now, these are the main 2 set ups i think

6b>black hole

or x->meaty 22b>black hole

which chars can escape these set ups? typically the 6b setups will lose to delay forward roll if you're too close, but 1-2 steps back is enough to prevent that. preliminary testing/observations shown below.

can get out of the set up and kill you for trying it - may or may not need meter

ragna - CS out for free, 22b makes timing a bit harder (if tech immediately, 22b catches it last hit) but still works

azrael - growler lol

bang - daifunka wins

valkenhayn - storm wolf

carl - vivace for free

amane/terumi - charge super gets out free

kokonoe - do your own blackhole, lol

can sort of get out, not really in practice/most cases

tsubaki/izayoi/arakune - astral only (lol)

litchi - at the right distance, she can't do anything. if too far, all terminal gets her out. if too close, can tech roll out. but you can strike a balance and get both options covered

hakumen/jin - free reset vs 6b setup, can yukikaze 22b setup

tager - overdrive>mtw gets you out

preliminary list of chars who have to eat UMvC3 style 1 player game resets

mu, relius, hazama, makoto, bullet, platinum, rachel, noel, taokaka, kagura

Relius could do doll super on wakeup which hits Koko with the last 3 punches, looks really weird though, almost like it slows the game down. The punches aren't CH so I assume you can block em? Either that or its just not in a CH state that long. I assume Carl can do the same, but idk.

Tested more, Relius is like Litchi, too close and he can roll, to far and he can doll super. Also, tager can just B sledge through all of it. If she's staffless, Litchi can charged puffball behind you and escape

i'll go mess around with it more today and see which go over character escape options. edit: if anyone wants to assist, test in corner with multiple set ups. 6b, 5c 236b 5c, and 5c 236b 5c 22c

[Sakaku]

From what I've tested Rachel can get out of her UB setup (22B) using wind tech.

[Miheko]

Black Hole

What is it?

Kokonoe's 632146D super, aka Black Hole. It is an unblockable attack with a vacuum effect created in front of Kokonoe, with 54f fully invulnerable start up and active frames. It's a major part of her oki game in the corner, as it leads to guaranteed free damage (7.5k+ meterless, 8.3k+ with DD ender) in the corner vs many characters, especially when they lack meter.

How do I set it up?

Typically Black Hole set ups are designed for corner use - these are the main methods of setting it up currently, but feel free to get creative.

x->B Bunker->5c->Black Hole

The go to set up. Safe vs forward rolls automatically, easy to set up from many combos. It loses to Litchi's wake up All Terminals - and for other DD escape, inputting the DD is very easy.

x->6b->Black Hole

A more specialized set up where you can dictate your positioning better, or use in case of risk of combo drop in B Bunker route. Positioned correctly, it will beat even Litchi's All Terminals super. However, if you mess up and execute this too close to the corner the opponent is able to delay a forward tech roll and escape the setup. The key is to position yourself just right - an example being 2c->6c->5d->j.b->land->6a->7 jump->j.b (1)->j.2c->j.236d->dash 6b->black hole.

x->B Bunker->5c->22b->Black Hole

A different type of set up - this beats out the roll option entirely regardless of positioning and forces an almost immediate tech. The advantage is that it makes doing a wake up super/special/overdrive quite difficult compared to a regular knockdown set up, since you're forced to tech before 22b hits you, thus putting you in a position where you need to input your super at an awkward time. The escape route would go | delay tech->superflash goes off->still in mid air from tech animation -> input super, hit the button as you land. A con of this set up is that it opens up an escape route for Jin/Hakuman, and if they choose to eat the 22b, your damage potential is reduced slightly (but still above 6k). It also opens up the open of bursting after blocking 1 hit of 22B, since bursts still hit invuln supers.

22B setup can also be escaped by doing a burst after blocking the 22B as Black Hole isn't invincible to bursts, but there's a way around it. So if your opponent has a burst you can do 22B > backdash 632146D asap, it leaves a little gap that 2 characters can exploit by IBing the 22B then doing forward dash for Arakune, and 41236C for Terumi, of course every other escape that works against the 22B setup works here.

What do I do after it?

You either let it rock by itself for a free 1200 dmg that won't be able to kill (even if they have 1 HP), or you be a man and combo after it. You can combo after Black Hole in 2 ways - after 2nd hit, and after 3rd hit. If you combo after the 3rd hit, you start your combo with the 1200 damage from the super, along with bonus proration - this is Kokonoe's best starter. Comboing after 2 hit still works, and you'll still get good damage (3.5k~ meterless) with the option to loop into another unescapable Black Hole.

Combo examples

3 hit - 8.3k, 60 meter before using Black Hole in corner. Note - 3c has a minimum range, unable to execute if you're too close.

22b->3c->2c->6c->j.5d->j.b(1)->jump->j.b(1)->j.C->j.236d->6[a]->22b->5b->5c->6b->236b->5c->5d->214214a->22a->236c

www.youtube.com/watch?v=YObbTE5mxeU&hd=1

2 hit - 4175 meterless, in corner

2c->6c->j.5.d->j.b(1)->6a->j.b(2)->jump->j.b(2)->j.2c->j.236d->6b->22a->6[a]->6b->236b->5c->236c

Check the combo thread for more.

Who can escape it?

Gets out meterless

• Carl - Vivace
  
• Rachel - Wind Tech
  
• Azrael - Growler Field
  
• Tager - Charged B-Sledge ->Additional Sledge. If you are able to delay tech (6b/B Bunker set up) then you can just make it by with delay tech+charged B-Sledge
  
  
  
  
  Gets out with meter required
  
  • Ragna - Carnage Scissors
    
  • Bang - Daifunka
    
  • Valkenhayn - Sturm Wolf
    
  • Amane - Rensoukyaku (632146C)
    
  • Terumi - Messenga (41236C) (vs 22b set up, delay tech to avoid all active frames of 22b while also not getting hit by it, and then input super at awkward timing mid tech)
    
  • Kokonoe - Superball C (214214C)
    
  • Taokaka - Imma Beat The Crap Out Of You (grab super)
    
    
    
    Gets out with astral required
    
    • Izayoi
      
    • Tsubaki
      
    • Arakune
      
    • Hazama (Overdrive->Astral)
      

    Can get out in certain situations - typically at fault of setup

    [*]Litchi - All Terminals (632146C) - only works if the black hole is far enough - changed 6b setup will beat this and forward roll.

    [*]Hakuman/Jin - Yukikaze will get them out if you use 22b set up - but they're free to 6b/B Bunker set up.

    Gets Fucked (aka everyone else)

    [*]Mu

    [*]Relius

    [*]Makoto

    [*]Bullet

    [*]Platinum

    [*]Noel

    [*]Kagura

    --

    relius doll super didn't really work for me - not really sure what you mean by litchi puffball lol. feel free to delete the archived post quotes

Edited November 13, 2013 by Miheko

[Dangaboy]

236B, 5C > 3D > 22B > (opponent techs) > instant over head j.C (hits) > 214D while 22B hits (graviton disappears) |> 2C > 6C > JC > j.B (2) > j.C > j.2C (w) |> j.B (2) > j.C > j.2C (w) |> j.B(2) > j.C > j.D > 236D |> 6B > 236B > 5C > 236C or go into oki

Does 5.9k with 236C ender.

5.3k with oki ender

[Cosmonaut Laika]

3 hit - 8.3k, 60 meter before using Black Hole in corner. Note - 3c has a minimum range, unable to execute if you're too close.

22b->3c->2c->6c->j.5d->j.b(1)->jump->j.b(1)->j.C->j.236d->6[a]->22b->5b->5c->6b->236b->5c->5d->214214a->22a->236c

Is the 7.5k meterless version just ending with 5c > 236c instead of 5c > 5d > 214214a > ... ?

[TD]

@ miheko, phantom is playable?

[Tsurael3]

@ miheko, phantom is playable?

Nope, that's why she's appropriately filled under the "Gets Fucked" section of BB characters:v:

(he prob means Platinum)

[Maho]

For the black hole, Tager escapes all setups by doing two charged B sledges, you just have to do the second one really fast after the first (pretty easy though), also Terumi's Messenga isn't a frame 1 reversal and will lose to meaty setups like the 22B one.

22B setup can also be escaped by doing a burst after blocking the 22B as Black Hole isn't invincible to bursts, but there's a way around it. So if your opponent has a burst you can do 22B > backdash 632146D asap, it leaves a little gap that 2 characters can exploit by IBing the 22B then doing forward dash for Arakune, and 41236C for Terumi, of course every other escape that works against the 22B setup works here.

[TD]

@tsurael, ah that makes more sense. couldn't find out who was missing from the list. so platinum's reversal super doesn't work at all? looks very invincible, idk.

very good posts on the black hole stuff. l dont have much to add here yet, but in terms of all her different oki options, l suppose it's appropriate to re-mention them here.

after most enders we get xd/22b/ 214x or 214214x*/black hole for oki, sometimes a combination of two, and up to three if there is already something on the field.

(not too sure if super fireball is worth 50 heat for oki yet).

there are many mixup leading from these. high/low/instant overhead/unblockable are the 4 basic. left/right are the trickier ones and often requires conditioning. chip damage requires a setup, probably gimmicky. throw is last as there usually is blockstun involved, but can be done.

l saw a few setups around most or all of these, so maybe l can assist in posting them here.

[Loli Bacon]

@tsurael, ah that makes more sense. couldn't find out who was missing from the list. so platinum's reversal super doesn't work at all? looks very invincible, idk.

very good posts on the black hole stuff. l dont have much to add here yet, but in terms of all her different oki options, l suppose it's appropriate to re-mention them here.

after most enders we get xd/22b/ 214x or 214214x*/black hole for oki, sometimes a combination of two, and up to three if there is already something on the field.

(not too sure if super fireball is worth 50 heat for oki yet).

there are many mixup leading from these. high/low/instant overhead/unblockable are the 4 basic. left/right are the trickier ones and often requires conditioning. chip damage requires a setup, probably gimmicky. throw is last as there usually is blockstun involved, but can be done.

l saw a few setups around most or all of these, so maybe l can assist in posting them here.

Throw is probably the best mixup when 214214A is out, since it will cover your attack attempts as well as the exclamation marks, so they have to guess that you're going to do a purple throw, they can't react, and this is essentially 4k unblockable damage.

[Miheko]

Is the 7.5k meterless version just ending with 5c > 236c instead of 5c > 5d > 214214a > ... ?

yep

@ miheko, phantom is playable?

typo orz ;_;

For the black hole, Tager escapes all setups by doing two charged B sledges, you just have to do the second one really fast after the first (pretty easy though), also Terumi's Messenga isn't a frame 1 reversal and will lose to meaty setups like the 22B one.

22B setup can also be escaped by doing a burst after blocking the 22B as Black Hole isn't invincible to bursts, but there's a way around it. So if your opponent has a burst you can do 22B > backdash 632146D asap, it leaves a little gap that 2 characters can exploit by IBing the 22B then doing forward dash for Arakune, and 41236C for Terumi, of course every other escape that works against the 22B setup works here.

noted!

[TD]

Throw is probably the best mixup when 214214A is out, since it will cover your attack attempts as well as the exclamation marks, so they have to guess that you're going to do a purple throw, they can't react, and this is essentially 4k unblockable damage.

didnt think of it this way. l need to test this. if its like the scenario in my head this could be useful, but im thinking its a 1-time thing. even with several options to open the foe up, its a throw, purple at that. pretty simple to beat once expected

@miheko, its all good, l was really asking too. 'cause if phantom becomes playable, arcsys can have most of my money.

[GaoGaoGao]

So for midscreen oki ive been going for 3C > 5D and its been working out really great. Heres the setups ive been doing afterwards:

- instant j.C > j.236D |> 5B > 2C > 5D, 2B > 5C > 236A, 3C > 236B*/236C/5D

- 2B hit confirm into 236D, stuff > 3C > 5D

- dash jump crossup j.236D |> 5B > stuff > 3C > 5D

*If you hit this near the corner you can extend the combo.

And of course, off the 2B setup you can gattling into something jump cancelable and go into instant j.C.

[Loli Bacon]

didnt think of it this way. l need to test this. if its like the scenario in my head this could be useful, but im thinking its a 1-time thing. even with several options to open the foe up, its a throw, purple at that. pretty simple to beat once expected

@miheko, its all good, l was really asking too. 'cause if phantom becomes playable, arcsys can have most of my money.

With Fireball on them with a graviton out, they can't even tell you've started a throw. There's no sign: visual or auditory that could give it away. They have to realize that you're throwing.

[Ronove]

For midscreen oki the best route is to end with 3C 22B, IMHO.

22B acts as a launcher in a similar way to Millia's disc oki, so whether you land a low or her overhead you'll be able to combo from that and start her regular air BnB (jB(2) jC 6D 236D dash 6B etc) and possibly carry the opponent to the corner. I'm currently looking for ways to get combos off 22B oki launcher that can possibly end again in 3C 22B.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Ronove

[GaoGaoGao]

Ive found that a lot of times after a 3C > 22B the opponent is too far away to even get hit by the 22B after they get up, which is why ive been doing 3C > 5D instead. You have to be really close to get oki off of 3C > 22B, so hit confirming off of jump attacks and A attacks will usually cause it to whiff midscreen. In the corner though, 22B seems really good because it catches them if they try to side tech out.

[Ronove]

Ive found that a lot of times after a 3C > 22B the opponent is too far away to even get hit by the 22B after they get up, which is why ive been doing 3C > 5D instead. You have to be really close to get oki off of 3C > 22B, so hit confirming off of jump attacks and A attacks will usually cause it to whiff midscreen. In the corner though, 22B seems really good because it catches them if they try to side tech out.

Mind you that when I'm talking about 3C 22B oki I'm talking about those short combos from 2A/2B or 5A which can end with 3C. Wait for 3C's second hit to pull the opponent towards and then input 22B. It works off jump-ins as well. Try doing a simple jB(2) 5A 5B 5C 3C 22B. She'll pull the opponent towards and set up the pole close enough. From there you can do a 2A/2B or a 6B and if they hit the lightning will act as a launcher allowing to combo in both cases.

[GaoGaoGao]

Yeah, I know it works if you keep the string short, but even then ive found it to be a little inconsistent during matches because you never know what kind of spacing situation you will be in. So ive pretty much stuck to using it in the corner and using 5D midscreen.

[Ronove]

Yeah, I know it works if you keep the string short, but even then ive found it to be a little inconsistent during matches because you never know what kind of spacing situation you will be in. So ive pretty much stuck to using it in the corner and using 5D midscreen.

But the point is to keep them short. Why would you want to do a long string off a 2A or 5A anyway? Just do the minimum required to get out the 3C as soon as possible and as close as possible. The whole point is to set up the oki for doing the real damage/corner carry. Think of it likes this: I'm in neutral, my goal is not land a hit that immediately gets me damage, but rather get in so that I can set up her oki and create momentum. So any 5A/2A or jump-in becomes a route to her midscreen oki which in turn creates the opportunity to carry the opponent all the way to corner.

[edit] You can even set it up from max range 5B, because 5B itself moves her sprite forward so you can just do simple 5B 5C 3C > 22B oki and the opponent will be within range to be picked up in case you successfully land your mixup.

For instance, off 22B oki > 2B you can do 6[A] 2C 6C jB(2)jC 6D 236D dash 6B and if you're already at the corner or not you can end the combo there by doing another 22B which again will work as oki ender and keep the opponent blocking at the corner while you do another high/low mixup. Else you can just continue the combo as usual to get more corner carry and set up fireball+graviton oki.

Off 22B oki > 6B you can do 6A 6C > air bnb again with the same pattern as described above. It's worth noting that landing the low mixup off this type of oki leads to a lot of stupid easy damage, which is good because it'll make the opponent scared of not blocking low.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Ronove

[GaoGaoGao]

If you keep the string short, like 5B > 5C > 3C, its a lot harder to hit confirm. 3C is -1 and not JCable so id rather not end my strings on that. And again, even if I keep the string short 22B is still a little inconsistent because of various spacing situations in an actual match. Honestly, 5D oki has been working a lot better than 22B oki in my matches. You can do an instant j.C off of 5D oki into a crouch only combo because it keeps them grounded rather than going for 6B which has a 24 frame startup.

Instant j.C > j.236D can lead to either

- ~4k damage corner carry with fireball oki (j.C > j.236D, land, 5B > 5C > 236A, 3C > 236B)

- ~3.5K damage back into the same oki situation (j.C > j.236D, land, 5B > 5C > 236A, 3C > 5D)

- ~4K damage into the blackhole setup for another 4k-6k (near corner: j.C > j.236D, land, 5B > 5C > 236A, 3C > 236B, 5C > 22B, blackhole)

- ~5.5k damage with a super ender. ( near corner: j.C > j.236D, land, 5B > 5C > 236A, 3C > 236B, dash, 5B > [6A] > 6B > 214214A, 5D, 236C)

Thats all off of an instant overhead, which is pretty invaluable imo.

Off of 2B you get

- ~2k into the same oki situation (2B > stuff into 5C > 236D, stuff into 5C > 3C > 5D)

- ~2k into corner carry with fireball oki (2B > stuff into 236D, 2C > 236B)

- All the other stuff you can do if you hit 236B near corner.

[Ronove]

Uhm... how can you not easily hitconfirm into 3C? Jump-ins, 5A, 2A, 2B... she has so many ways to safely gatling into that on hit and you don't have to care about damage, all you need to care about is that you end that with 3C. You can just spam 5As, dash 5A again until you hitconfirm them and then go into the 3C gatling route and it'll work.

And again, even if I keep the string short 22B is still a little inconsistent because of various spacing situations in an actual match.

Could you provde an example of that? I've been trying at all ranges and I'm not really encountering the inconsistency you speak of. 3C pulls the opponent towards you at the right distance even when you confirm a 5B at its max range, 22B will activate and keep the opponent in blockstun while you're doing 2B/6B mixup.

The reason why I prefer 22B to 5D oki is because the lightning trap keeps the opponent honest from mashing (other than bursting of course) while acting at the same time as launcher if a mixup hits.

[GaoGaoGao]

If you do a 2B at all after a 5B in your string the opponent will be too far for 22B to hit. As for other spacing situations, its most likely character specific and you'll just have to witness it yourself when playing people.

If you do meaty 2B or j.C, they cannot mash. Just gotta practice the meaty timings. It loses to DPs, but you still have to respect that even with 22B oki. The launch from 22B is nice, but a crouch only combo does sooooo much more damage. You probably get more off of 2B because of the launch, but Id rather have 4k-6k damage off of instant j.C than 3k-4k off of 2B. Also, the 2B/6B mixup will be pretty easy to block once people get used to fighting Koko. 6B is also not JC able and negative.

Edited November 14, 2013 by GaoGaoGao

[Ronove]

If you do a 2B at all after a 5B in your string the opponent will be too far for 22B to hit.

But why would you want to do 2B after 5B, it makes no sense. 5B moves her forward closing the distance between her and the opponent so that's the last normal you want to use before doing 5C 3C. Just hitconfirm with jump-in/5As/2A/2B and THEN go 5B 5C 3C.

its most likely character specific and you'll just have to witness it yourself when playing people.

True, I need to test this on all of the cast but I think this should be comfortably working on most of them.

If you do meaty 2B or j.C, they cannot mash. Just gotta practice the meaty timings. It loses to DPs, but you still have to respect that even with 22B oki. The launch from 22B is nice, but a crouch only combo does sooooo much more damage. You probably get more off of 2B because of the launch, but Id rather have 4k-6k damage off of instant j.C than 3k-4k off of 2B.

When the damage is this high it really doesn't matter if it's 1k more or not, it's more important to carry the opponent to the corner and setting up corner oki so that you can ride on momentum, IMHO.

As for DPs/reversals, I have to see if I can just bait them with 5A and 1AB during 22B and still be able to follow up with hi/low. 22B lasts quite a while so it might be possible. Have to hit the lab to try that out!

Edited November 14, 2013 by Ronove

[TD]

With Fireball on them with a graviton out, they can't even tell you've started a throw. There's no sign: visual or auditory that could give it away. They have to realize that you're throwing.

The foe will realize that their character will have stopped blocking. They will hear it. Or rather, they wouldn't hear the sounds that each character makes while they block. Especially if they were trying to ib or something; there's a big fireball on them and yet their characters aren't making blocking noises, they would put two and two together (eventually) and then this -shouldn't- work again, because there's only one situation where something like this could happen, and there's a purple throw.

I didn't actually test this but I have another theory.without an audio cue (no sound) there's still the matter of hitstop, and how fast the fireball would be going over their sprite as opposed to if they were actually blocking it. It may appear unusual. If people figure it out they might start teching throw during this unusual period.