Kokonoe or Brokonoe?

[Loli Bacon]

Are you seriously saying that we should be expected to gain accurate or valuable data from a character who ALTERS YOUR MOVEMENT ITSELF AT WILL, all in the course of 99 second intervals, while she changes her own movements all the while? She has one of the most versatile styles of gameplay out there, with that kind of method we'll be playing BB4 before we have a hold on how to play against her.

Not having her is still certainly a handycap, but not one we chose.

Yes, I expect you to play against Kokonoes and learn what she's capable of doing. Is this your only anime fighting game you played? You should expect to put in effort, it's not something that'll take one or two matches to learn. Play against a Kokonoe, find a regular one online or something, and practice the matchup.

Not having her is a handicap, but it most certainly IS one you choose; if you had enough money to buy the game, but not enough money to throw down $10 to pick her up, you should have other priorities than learning how to play against her because if you're having problems buying her to the point where it is no longer a choice, I don't expect she's even a real problem on a competitive level for you.

[Myoro]

What i'm saying is, yes, I'd love to put in the effort to learn how to play against Kokonoe, and I don't expect to know how to do it in one or two matches, because while damage and neutral come easy to her she's not easy to play against. But matches against her are scarce, short, and far inbetween. And I can't exactly take out a notepad mid battle and go over all the many varied ways she obliterates me. I can't learn the feel of her moves, the timing needed to deal with them, or the influence of graviton in such short matches, no matter how plentiful they may be, (which again they are not.) And also there's the simple fact that I learn best how to deal with an opponent after playing them myself to some level of competency, which for the obvious reasons is impossible with Kokonoe.

On the subject of affording her, CP was a present for me, I had ordered it but it was bought by another. I myself, like many here, am a broke college student who cant exactly shell out 20 bucks to get a Japanese psn card whenever they want. I'd love to have her, but I can't afford her right now.

[mAceOfHearts]

Perhaps you could watch replays to better understand what she's doing? It's not much, I know, but it's worth a try if you're dedicated enough.

[WintySoSolo]

i fail to see why i would pay money for 2 characters that I don't want to play.

When I travel to a tournament, I do it for me. I do it to have a fun day out with [possibly] cool people so I don't have to sit at home all day. I do it to socialize, play people offline, and a variety of other reasons. All of these are FOR ME.

I'm not going to pay money to a third party overseas company to buy jp psn cards because the community tells me to lab against kokonoe or find people online who will sit down and let me practice on them. If i were to do that, I'd being doing it FOR YOU. Because YOU tell me I have to. I gain no enjoyment out of paying 200% face value for a character I won't even play. No I'm sorry I don't understand the thought process where this is alright.

[BloodWolF]

Then don't buy her. The community has decided as a majority that we enjoy the variety of characters to both play as and against in tournaments. So that's the way things run. If it's not worth the money, don't buy the character. However, complaining to the rest of the community about how our priorities aren't the same as yours is just childish. We're not telling you you have to do anything. If you want, you can spend some of those offline matches you travel to for yourself practicing against a koko offline. I don't play any of the new characters. I've played the same one since the launch of CT, but I still buy all of the DLC WHEN I CAN because it's worth it to me to practice against all of the characters. I enjoy going into the game knowing my options. If it's not worth it to you, then don't buy them and don't let it get your panties in a twist. That's why it's OPTIONAL DLC. Look at your priorities and act accordingly.

[Loli Bacon]

i fail to see why i would pay money for 2 characters that I don't want to play.

When I travel to a tournament, I do it for me. I do it to have a fun day out with [possibly] cool people so I don't have to sit at home all day. I do it to socialize, play people offline, and a variety of other reasons. All of these are FOR ME.

I'm not going to pay money to a third party overseas company to buy jp psn cards because the community tells me to lab against kokonoe or find people online who will sit down and let me practice on them. If i were to do that, I'd being doing it FOR YOU. Because YOU tell me I have to. I gain no enjoyment out of paying 200% face value for a character I won't even play. No I'm sorry I don't understand the thought process where this is alright.

Nah, you'd be doing it for you. If you lost to a Kokonoe at a tournament because you lacked matchup experience, I couldn't care less. I'm sure you would, though.

[SuperJ]

watch. xrd drops, arcsys adds dlc characters, inevitably fucks up, and someone manages the gall to say: "why does this nigga get to use dlc but i don't get to use ex characters?"

anyways, which is more likely to be better playtested, in quality and quantity: the core ensemble of characters you see at the loketest or some random dlc character you've never even seen in motion until release day?

so it's no surprise that the power levels of dlc chars have a lot of variance. a prudent designer might make a new character intentionally weak, so the metagame is disturbed as little as possible. but more likely, something slips through their testing and then it's this shit again

fighting games are ecosystems, and dlc are the invasive species. you're not playing the game plus an extra character, you are playing a different game entirely. what if honda was dlc in sf2? lol

it's ironic. adding dlc is really no different from "patching" a game. yet the former is accepted and the latter is blasphemous. at least NRS is willing to adjust their beta tests after the fact (even if their games as a whole are beta tests). evidently arcsys is not, because if they haven't already nerfed koko to oblivion with this amount of feedback/whining, you shouldn't expect them to in the near future (that's the definition of insanity).

so 1. dlc characters are likely to make the game as a whole dogshit or worse off. 2. arcsys adopts not full measures but half-measures in regards to dlc balance. i'm pretty ambivalent about this topic (it's pretty complicated!). while i think the aforementioned reasons are enough justification to ban dlc characters on principle, i think a banning mentality is toxic to the value of self-improvement, which is the most important thing of all. it's a lose-lose scenario, but allowing dlc characters, and therefore kokonoe, is the way to go.

and if bbcp IS dogshit because of kokonoe? get used to playing bad games. MBAs don't give a fuck about your opinions on game design. the only way to prevent brokonoe situations is to shun dlc altogether but that is not happening in my lifetime

[RurouniLoneWolf]

No I'm sorry I don't understand the thought process where this is alright.

Just glancing at these last few posts/pages, it seems to me that you may have misunderstood what people were trying to say or maybe have lost sight of what you were originally arguing. It happens. Here's a quick 3 point summary of what just happened so you guys can get back on the same page.

1) You propose having to buy Kokonoe to be competitive is wrong

2) People propose that being competitive already requires much larger monetary investments in the form of arcade sticks, paying venue fees for locals, traveling to majors, etc.

3) Misunderstanding Point 2, You start talking about how traveling to majors is mostly for yourself.

[pulsespot]

Hmm...

Still gonna play Kokonoe.

I've waited this long and I'm not gonna change my mind just because she ended up being so extremely op.

I'll just have to take the hate mail with a grain of salt until she inevitably gets the Makoto treatment.

Sent from my VS840 4G using Tapatalk

[NecroTheReaper]

I doubt that'd happen since the fan base for Koko is huge. I'd say she's either gonna stay where she's at or, at worst, drop to A+ material. Still it bothers me that this turned from "how/why is Koko op and what can be done" to "ban Koko, I cant/wont buy her right now". No offense to the people with financial issues since I'm the same xD

[Myoro]

I, personally, wasn't talking about banning her because I'm poor as dirt, that'd be silly, I just want people to acknowledge that not being able to lab her makes the already painful experience of facing her infinitely worse.

Just a little empathy really, nothing drastic.

[WintySoSolo]

Just glancing at these last few posts/pages, it seems to me that you may have misunderstood what people were trying to say or maybe have lost sight of what you were originally arguing. It happens. Here's a quick 3 point summary of what just happened so you guys can get back on the same page.

1) You propose having to buy Kokonoe to be competitive is wrong

2) People propose that being competitive already requires much larger monetary investments in the form of arcade sticks, paying venue fees for locals, traveling to majors, etc.

3) Misunderstanding Point 2, You start talking about how traveling to majors is mostly for yourself.

see i still don't understand this

let's divide the listed expenses into two separate categories:

1. investments made specifically to play BBCP

2. general investments made to play

buying a PS3 and everything else required to play it is a general investment.

buying a fightstick is a general investment

buying BBCP itself is a specific investment

travel fees may or may not be a general investment - depending on what games you play when you get there

entry fees are a specific investment

let's remove all general investments from the table because these are not made directly to play bbcp and it's silly to include them.

So we have the cost of the game, and the cost of entry fees, and potentially the cost of travel, assuming I'm traveling to ONLY play bbcp and not do other things, like bitch about whatever overhyped thing capcom recently produced or set up my laptop in a visible place and see if people will come forward and play blitzkampf with me, or whatever else I want to do at tournaments.

Now see, all of these things that are specific investments are about playing the game.

You're asking me "why do you find it stupid that you have to pay money in order to lab against these characters?" and I'm sitting here wondering how anyone DOESN'T.

If someone made that was free and you had to pay 3-5 bucks to unlock each character, allowing people to only unlock the ones they want, I'm pretty sure there would be a lot of public outcry. Especially when it comes down to character specific combos and setups that you can't test against everyone without paying for everyone.

This is an extreme case of the same thing you are telling me is perfectly acceptable.

I don't understand HOW it is acceptable or why the community goes along with it. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I mean maybe I'm just a bratty kid who doesn't remember shoving quarters into a machine every time I wanted to try a new combo but something about this seems bullshit to me.

the community decided etc etc

then why was there a discussion on the banning of kokonoe in the first place? It seems the community is divided on an issue. I'm saying if we are discussing the potential banning on a character, we should take the time to look at some related issues.

[pulsespot]

I'm sure there are Koko players who would spar with you online and help you practice the match up, for all that's worth.

Well, back to my gf still complaining that Koko is playable before Jubei.

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[Zerotoad5]

I think the main issue with Kokone right now is the indecisiveness of the community.

I think having a civil discussion to decide whether her legality has a negative effect on the game and hopefully come to a conclusion of to ban her at major tournaments or not.

I am of the opinion she should be banned.

In Blazblue before her release the top tiers would probably look something like

http://instagram.com/p/fMUGX1uME4/

I feel after her release it would be

1# Kokonoe

2# Other

A lot of the cast members don’t have the tools to fight her.

I see and hear a lot of “learn the matchup” but what if the end result is the character can’t win (I’m assuming equal high level of play here obv better players will win most of the time)

So by Kokone being legal certain characters no longer become tournament viable. (again assuming highest level of play here)

Japan has no reason to address this problem Kokone in any real tournament is effectively banned. She is not available on arcade.

Sorry for long post hoping to open up some civil discussion.

[BloodWolF]

There is a discussion about koko because she's an outlier in dlc characters due to her abilities, not the fact that she's dlc. This isn't the first time there has been dlc characters in a fighter (or even BB for that matter), so that fight has already been fought and the final verdict determined.

Perhaps it's just a matter of how people see money. I come from a very poor environment, so I don't look down on the value of a dollar. However, this is a game I play a lot and enjoy playing at a higher level. So WHEN I get the money, spending it on something that will help me enjoy it more seems like a viable option. I just bought Koko two days ago because that is how long it took me to get the extra cash. Overall, spending 100+ dollars on a game I play as much as I do this one is quite a good deal considering. People will complain the same way about buying a new version 1+ years later, but it's still a steal if you play and enjoy the game. That money also goes to the people who will go on to make more games that I enjoy. I can understanding being stingy with cash when you're in hard times, but the shit is made to be traded for services/etc. that make you enjoy life, so spend it wherever you want.

Edited January 16, 2014 by BloodWolF

[Loli Bacon]

I see and hear a lot of “learn the matchup” but what if the end result is the character can’t win

None of her matchups are 9-1 or worse. As a Kokonoe player, I know there are plenty of ways to stop me from doing things. I don't know what everyone can do in those scenarios, but I see her holes and weaknesses. I'm just waiting for people to capitalize on them. Even if she invalidates a character, that character would have to run into her in a tournament setting. This isn't specifically limited to Kokonoe, as characters like Tager deal with this all the time. People who say "she makes only 5 characters tournament viable" are wrong as that's too vague. She makes certain characters not tournament viable AGAINST her. If they never run into one, they're still fully viable. The people who use those characters need to realize they run the risk of running into a bad matchup; learn an alt. This isn't uncommon. But for a large portion of the cast (it's one character they have to worry about) this isn't necessary.

[RurouniLoneWolf]

snip

Yeah, you are still a bit lost so I'll give it one more shot to get you back on the right page but then I got to go.

Basically, general and specific investments are irrelevant. Remember, the point that other people are trying to make is that you need to make greater investments to specifically compete. So, it really doesn't matter if you go to locals and travel to majors for stuff more general than competing because it doesn't really change the fact that you have to travel to the major to compete to begin with. If you don't pay to go to the local or the major, then you can't compete. Basically, to prove your original point, you need to prove that you don't really have to spend all that much money to compete. Or you could concede your original point and try to argue something else, which is sort of what I think you're doing now.

Anyway, good luck with sorting this out.

[Narroo]

None of her matchups are 9-1 or worse. As a Kokonoe player, I know there are plenty of ways to stop me from doing things. I don't know what everyone can do in those scenarios, but I see her holes and weaknesses. I'm just waiting for people to capitalize on them. Even if she invalidates a character, that character would have to run into her in a tournament setting. This isn't specifically limited to Kokonoe, as characters like Tager deal with this all the time. People who say "she makes only 5 characters tournament viable" are wrong as that's too vague. She makes certain characters not tournament viable AGAINST her. If they never run into one, they're still fully viable. The people who use those characters need to realize they run the risk of running into a bad matchup; learn an alt. This isn't uncommon. But for a large portion of the cast (it's one character they have to worry about) this isn't necessary.

From what I understand though- waiting for the US version of the game- No one is really a good alt against her though. If you're learning an alt to cover weaknesses, you'd pretty much just end up playing Kokonoe if you're trying to win tournaments. In which case, it's a hope-skip-and a jump to maining Kokonoe.

I think I just realized something. Remember how in "Help Me Kokonoe" K complains that she's not a playable character? Whelp, she's making up for lost time. She's going to have everyone play her till she's played as much as members of the original cast. Everyone is going to play Dr. Kokonoe until she's satisfied.

[OutlawVinegar]

Even if she invalidates a character, that character would have to run into her in a tournament setting. This isn't specifically limited to Kokonoe, as characters like Tager deal with this all the time. People who say "she makes only 5 characters tournament viable" are wrong as that's too vague. She makes certain characters not tournament viable AGAINST her. If they never run into one, they're still fully viable. The people who use those characters need to realize they run the risk of running into a bad matchup; learn an alt. This isn't uncommon. But for a large portion of the cast (it's one character they have to worry about) this isn't necessary.

I don't really care about BB at all

The whole discussion here (at least, going by the OP), is whether or not to ban Kokonoe in a tournament setting, because she has lopsided enough matchups against a large portion of the cast that they aren't tournament-viable if she is allowed. Hence, her existence in the game/allowance in tournaments can potentially hurt the longevity of the competitive BB scene because a large portion of the cast becomes 'unusable' against her.

Saying 'She invalidates part of the cast, but only if they have to fight her' doesn't work as a counterpoint. That's exactly the problem! No one is discussing anything BUT that. It's not a system mechanic or glitch that's hurting the viability of the cast in competition (like macros or the throw bug in Garou), it's the particulars of one overpowered character and how strongly they might affect the health of the competitive scene.

That said, you're right; people will be able to use whomever they want in tournament and keep a 'sub' around in case they face Kokonoe, but it's an inelegant solution.

Character specialists will suffer for it, for one. People who don't have the time or incentive to learn subs will suffer for it as well. And it's less important, but people who want to get into a fighting game in the first place often are discouraged when they hear that the character they want to learn can't compete with the Top Tiers™ and they ought to learn a second/better character.

[mAc Chaos]

If a character is that strong, it's not a matter of "if you have to fight them," because you are going to see them swarming every tournament from that point.

[Soviet Bear]

If a single character changes the metagame to the point where the majority of the cast has to sub someone in order to deal with said "OP" character, it's unhealthy for the game on multiple levels. Assuming that Kokonoe is too powerful, sure, there is a solution to deal with her: learn a hard counter character, or pick her and be a better Kokonoe in a mirror. It's not impossible to defeat her, but if people feel like they are pigeon-holed into certain solutions just because of this one factor, then the game becomes stale, people get frustrated and you limit the variety of the cast.

It's hard to come to a middle-ground in this discussion though, because if you play Kokonoe, you like the character and don't want her banned. If you're not playing Kokonoe and happen to play someone who is easily destroyed by her, you want her gone until she's "fixed".

[pulsespot]

Shorter way of looking at it;

If we allow Kokonoe we will see all the major, and maybe even minor, tournaments reduced to a Koko fest with the occasional Asrael or whatever. We have a fighting game with a good sized roster suddenly only seeing four or five characters being represented.

Or ban Koko from tournaments and miss out on only one character.

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[Errol]

Kokonoe doesn't have a 'hard counter' character.

Of course the same is true of Valk, Tao, Litchi, and Hazama I guess.

[mAc Chaos]

ban them all too

[Loli Bacon]

I don't really care about BB at all

The whole discussion here (at least, going by the OP), is whether or not to ban Kokonoe in a tournament setting, because she has lopsided enough matchups against a large portion of the cast that they aren't tournament-viable if she is allowed. Hence, her existence in the game/allowance in tournaments can potentially hurt the longevity of the competitive BB scene because a large portion of the cast becomes 'unusable' against her.

Saying 'She invalidates part of the cast, but only if they have to fight her' doesn't work as a counterpoint. That's exactly the problem! No one is discussing anything BUT that. It's not a system mechanic or glitch that's hurting the viability of the cast in competition (like macros or the throw bug in Garou), it's the particulars of one overpowered character and how strongly they might affect the health of the competitive scene.

That said, you're right; people will be able to use whomever they want in tournament and keep a 'sub' around in case they face Kokonoe, but it's an inelegant solution.

Character specialists will suffer for it, for one. People who don't have the time or incentive to learn subs will suffer for it as well. And it's less important, but people who want to get into a fighting game in the first place often are discouraged when they hear that the character they want to learn can't compete with the Top Tiers™ and they ought to learn a second/better character.

You're right, but again, none of her matchups are worse than 8-2, with most of them being 7-3s. 7-3 matchups don't make them unviable, it just makes her difficult to deal with. I'm just saying for those people who have 8-2 matchups against her (I'm pretty sure it's just Tager at the moment, might be someone else as more is uncovered) pick up another character who doesn't do terrible against her (Mu comes to mind).

Shorter way of looking at it;

If we allow Kokonoe we will see all the major, and maybe even minor, tournaments reduced to a Koko fest with the occasional Asrael or whatever. We have a fighting game with a good sized roster suddenly only seeing four or five characters being represented.

Or ban Koko from tournaments and miss out on only one character.

Sent from my VS840 4G using Tapatalk

You don't know this. Most of the tournaments we've had thus far didn't have many Kokonoe players. The most recent tournament that happened had a Kokonoe mirror grand finals, but that is the first instance of this happening.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Loli Bacon