[Xrd] Slayer Gameplay Discussion

[_Sey]

I was watching an old (1.0) vid of Hase playing against a lot of Chipps, and I noticed that he was using burst in a pretty interesting way.

He was favoring doing reversal gold burst  vs. Chipp's setplay over using burst to escape damage/combos (unless he happened to be very low on life and got hit by something that would kill him).

>=50% meter boosts Slayer's ability to convert into meaningful damage and playing a more threatening neutral a lot, and 100% early in a match/round vs. Chipp can easily lead to actually closing a round and even possibly end up going into a second round with Chipp barely getting the chance to burst again (uh... I think, this may be turning a bit too much into theory fighting lol).

How do you guys feel about this tactic? In what match ups would you use it?

Edited August 3, 2015 by _Sey
lmao I have no idea how to resize the youtube link, I'm sorry if it's huge lol

[koufdell]

some 1.1 hase http://www.twitch.tv/joniosan/v/9274405 starts at 7:37:00

[Mr. Fancypants]

 I was watching an old (1.0) vid of Hase playing against a lot of Chipps, and I noticed that he was using burst in a pretty interesting way.

He was favoring doing reversal gold burst  vs. Chipp's setplay over using burst to escape damage/combos (unless he happened to be very low on life and got hit by something that would kill him).

>=50% meter boosts Slayer's ability to convert into meaningful damage and playing a more threatening neutral a lot, and 100% early in a match/round vs. Chipp can easily lead to actually closing a round and even possibly end up going into a second round with Chipp barely getting the chance to burst again (uh... I think, this may be turning a bit too much into theory fighting lol).

How do you guys feel about this tactic? In what match ups would you use it?

 

This is a pretty interesting concept. Slayer gets a lot of mileage out of his meter, and threatening an early gold burst might not be a bad trick to have up your sleeve. I'm going to play around with this at my next casuals meetup and see where it gets me.

[koufdell]

so i was playing with undertow and had this idea
undertow rrc os yrc basically if it hits yourrc the undertow for combo if you are near the corner if oponnent backdash you yrc (blitz and sp /od with invulnerability beats it but it has to be reversals)
but here is a cool thing os trade
i do on sol cs fs 2k 2d  meaty undertow and i do DOT motion, if he mashes 5k (the 3frame normal hhhh) guess what after the counter trade i got dot combo not rocket science but stil sweet if you are in midscreen far away from the corner

 

 

[koufdell]

continuing with the undertow stuff , if you are in corner you can set this guaranteed hit on characters without reversals and blitz shield
cs fs 2k 2d meaty undertow OS yrc 2P2S 
if they block or try to jump they get hit , if they backdash yrc 2p2s comes out and you get free lancher to air combo 
maybe something that can come in handy against characters like millia or elphelt

Edited September 14, 2015 by koufdell

[_Sey]

How am I supposed to stop people from upbacking and getting out of Slayer's range after situations where I can't pressure anymore?

6HS is too slow to use on reaction, bdc throw is OK but no reward/you have to be pretty on point.

 

Edited September 20, 2015 by _Sey

[fogelstrom]

How am I supposed to stop people from upbacking and getting out of Slayer's range after situations where I can't pressure anymore?

6HS is too slow to use on reaction, bdc throw is OK but no reward/you have to be pretty on point.

 

Could you give a situation you know happens? Would probably be easier to just give points for a specific one and then take it a bit from there.

HOWEVER a friend has recently returned from 2yr in Japan and he plays an upback Venom. At first I had a really hard time but I have slowly started to find my footing albeit I'm still at the loosing end (japan mountain training vs online eu does that).

I started off by trying to give chase from the air all the time but I quickly realized it wasn't especially effective. What I did our latest set was instead trying to position myself under him when he did normal jump and not IADs. Obviously in Venoms case he can use Mad Struggle and summon balls to alter trajectory etc but it's still me being close. If you are good at air throws this also helps ALOT. Another thing is Mappa on block to BDC stuff to retain pressure. And dont be afraid to press buttons after Mappa unless obviously they IB. Mappa, BDC, Under Pressure is super sweet or just BDC Mappa. For forward momentum I really enjoy doing FDC Dandys because you get time to react to their positioning for either CWH, UP or even letting PB rip for a possible CH and hopefully converting for massive damage.

Playing Slayer is a lot of cat and mouse type of play. People don't want to block Slayer because you tend to die. So you really need to take advantage of your momentum. Make the gambles.

[_Sey]

Could you give a situation you know happens? Would probably be easier to just give points for a specific one and then take it a bit from there.
HOWEVER a friend has recently returned from 2yr in Japan and he plays an upback Venom. At first I had a really hard time but I have slowly started to find my footing albeit I'm still at the loosing end (japan mountain training vs online eu does that).

I started off by trying to give chase from the air all the time but I quickly realized it wasn't especially effective. What I did our latest set was instead trying to position myself under him when he did normal jump and not IADs. Obviously in Venoms case he can use Mad Struggle and summon balls to alter trajectory etc but it's still me being close. If you are good at air throws this also helps ALOT. Another thing is Mappa on block to BDC stuff to retain pressure. And dont be afraid to press buttons after Mappa unless obviously they IB. Mappa, BDC, Under Pressure is super sweet or just BDC Mappa. For forward momentum I really enjoy doing FDC Dandys because you get time to react to their positioning for either CWH, UP or even letting PB rip for a possible CH and hopefully converting for massive damage.

Playing Slayer is a lot of cat and mouse type of play. People don't want to block Slayer because you tend to die. So you really need to take advantage of your momentum. Make the gambles.

Thank you!

Venom is exactly one of the character I was thinking about actually ahah, I got a bit too salty earlier netplaying one (and Ramlethal, dealing with jHS and her ability to stall in the air was even more infuriating than upback jHS/ball summons/teleport).

Yeah, positioning yourself seems to be the key to dealing with that kind of situations, like:

Opponent is cornered and they like to jump/iad out and you have just ended a combo with K mappa >>> backdash and watch what they are going to do (hopefully score a bdc air throw if you read them right).

but taking Venom as an example, I was just wondering if there was some kind of "low risk" option to dealing with situations like that while still keeping some sort of advantage.

While backdashing and waiting for them to hang themselves somehow is a pretty safe and OK option, it's also pretty bad in the sense that you don't really get much out of it if the Venom does not try to IAD out, hell he may even get to go on the offensive. I dunno, am I supposed to buffer 2144 and then react with ~8HS if they try to iad out or ~7P/236P if they try to press something? Is that actually doable? Or am I seriously supposed to just gamble every single time I ever end up in situations like these?

And while most people are scared of Slayer's options I just can't shake the feeling that... there's barely anything to be so worried about if you try to upback instead of mashing buttons unless Slayer has 50% meter and has you cornered. What's the worst he can do? hit a fuzzy guard with a 2K that he likely will be too far for converting into cS?

That's actually what often messes me up when playing someone good, they'll just upback out of stuff and reset to neutral instead of straight up mashing just to get hit by IL CH and lose a round/match.

 

Bah, I guess I just don't understand the character at all.

 

Edited September 20, 2015 by _Sey

[fogelstrom]

Wall of text

 

Alright so if you K Mappa someone and they are in the corner we say in normal scenario it's normal block and it hits on first available frame so it's -2 on block. Venom should opt to 2K here instead of jumping out. His 2K is 5F startup with 3F so there's really nothing you can do about it the way of your own buttons. In this case BDC Mappa or BDC P Dandy are your options.

For upback you are -2F, jump startup 4F and you are likely going to press c.S so 5F so they will always get to airborne but are forced to FD. You need take advantage of this situation. Don't forget that you can actually just do c.S.... c.S gatles to 6H / c.S, 214PS / c.S, 236P. If you tag them with FD in the air they are stuck again.

If you have the player on download that they ALWAYS jump after K Mappa in the corner just go straight for 6H, 214P and try to react to hit/block for appropriate followup.

If they jump IAD and you backdash to wait and see what they do air throw is really strong in this situation but imo Slayer gains more from going ham with buttons.

Albeit I just theoryfight you wanting a low risk option but still have advantage just isn't Slayer. He's a high risk/high reward character so you have to make the hard reads and gambles to get the payoff. People obivously know somewhat how to deal with Slayer and more often then not you are forced to chase down people again and again.

And in regard to "what is there to worry about" when upbacking... well 6H endlessly. Getting tagged by it is always really really bad. Even if tagged in air with FD you have good frame advantage even without dandy cancels. As previously stated, you have to take advantage of the momentum in all of these small shifts.

Personally I feel like playing Slayer is an uphill battle pretty much against every character in the game and that you have to put in a bit of extra work. But I have fun with Slayer and I don't feel anything for any of the other current characters so sticking with him regardless of his obvious negative aspects.

[ShinsoBEAM]

Thank you!

Venom is exactly one of the character I was thinking about actually ahah, I got a bit too salty earlier netplaying one (and Ramlethal, dealing with jHS and her ability to stall in the air was even more infuriating than upback jHS/ball summons/teleport).

Yeah, positioning yourself seems to be the key to dealing with that kind of situations, like:

Opponent is cornered and they like to jump/iad out and you have just ended a combo with K mappa >>> backdash and watch what they are going to do (hopefully score a bdc air throw if you read them right).

but taking Venom as an example, I was just wondering if there was some kind of "low risk" option to dealing with situations like that while still keeping some sort of advantage.

While backdashing and waiting for them to hang themselves somehow is a pretty safe and OK option, it's also pretty bad in the sense that you don't really get much out of it if the Venom does not try to IAD out, hell he may even get to go on the offensive. I dunno, am I supposed to buffer 2144 and then react with ~8HS if they try to iad out or ~7P/236P if they try to press something? Is that actually doable? Or am I seriously supposed to just gamble every single time I ever end up in situations like these?

And while most people are scared of Slayer's options I just can't shake the feeling that... there's barely anything to be so worried about if you try to upback instead of mashing buttons unless Slayer has 50% meter and has you cornered. What's the worst he can do? hit a fuzzy guard with a 2K that he likely will be too far for converting into cS?

That's actually what often messes me up when playing someone good, they'll just upback out of stuff and reset to neutral instead of straight up mashing just to get hit by IL CH and lose a round/match.

 

Bah, I guess I just don't understand the character at all.

 

Holding up back against Slayer isn't really a good idea in general.  

But I think one of the problems is ending combo with K mappa, it's just straight up a bad combo ender, it's so bad alot of times I will just opt to end with 5K if I can't get a 2D in.  If you do end a combo on K mappa your best 2 options are probably BDC bite, and just mashing 2P(against characters that don't blow that option up).

That being said for them just blocking out your pressure and them jumping out and running away...well that's part of the game.  If you think they are iching to jump out, 5P,6H,2S,j.6P+H are all really strong options.  Even better option is just YRC whatever you were doing and jump and throw them, some characters with annoying stalling tricks can make that more difficult, but normally those stalling tricks will let you hit them with CH 2S which should get you 200+ damage without even spending meter.

Also try to remember if they chicken block and you get them blocking something they have to burn meter to not die.

[daymendou]

K Mappa as a combo ender is just 1 option and it's not awful. Don't think too hard about the frame disadvantage, scout your opponent to see their reaction. If they don't know Slayer, chances are they won't press anything or they'll mash throw/2P. Defaulting to backdash everytime obviously makes them feel safe to jump out. BDC Bite and c.S are relatively safe to try. Even consider forward dash, which can beat moves that catch backdash. If they're in the corner, you can BDC IAD.

It's not really possible for Slayer to prevent jumps completely. Just accept that they will escape sometimes.

[ShinsoBEAM]

 

K Mappa as a combo ender is just 1 option and it's not awful. Don't think too hard about the frame disadvantage, scout your opponent to see their reaction. If they don't know Slayer, chances are they won't press anything or they'll mash throw/2P. Defaulting to backdash everytime obviously makes them feel safe to jump out. BDC Bite and c.S are relatively safe to try. Even consider forward dash, which can beat moves that catch backdash. If they're in the corner, you can BDC IAD.

 

It's not really possible for Slayer to prevent jumps completely. Just accept that they will escape sometimes.

Beating people who don't know the matchup is never the problem, it's dealing with something like sol that knows he can press 2D and beat anything that's not BDC or 2H.

Edited October 4, 2015 by ShinsoBEAM

[daymendou]

People who know the matchup don't always want to play the BDC guessing game. In JP play, you sometimes see people backdash after getting hit by K Mappa to make c.S or BDC Bite/P Mappa whiff.

You even said it yourself, if Sol presses 2D you can beat it with BDC. If you see him do that everytime, just BDC everytime.

[daymendou]

Interesting air super YRC tech from Taka

https://youtu.be/yI1njsp62oo

He does dash jump into air super YRC and gets the tail hit on standing Zato. Since the tail is a projectile, Slayer bypasses hitstop and can guarantee Undertow (mash Blitz did not come out).

I'll test it a bit tomorrow. Could be useful if it only costs 25 meter but it might need 75.

[fogelstrom]

Interesting air super YRC tech from Taka

https://youtu.be/yI1njsp62oo

He does dash jump into air super YRC and gets the tail hit on standing Zato. Since the tail is a projectile, Slayer bypasses hitstop and can guarantee Undertow (mash Blitz did not come out).

I'll test it a bit tomorrow. Could be useful if it only costs 25 meter but it might need 75.

I don't see the point in the tech really. It's extra 25% meter for guaranteed Undertow to hit unless burst/DAA but when are you ever going to be hitting someone with a SUPER DEEP raw DHD like that?

Just Mappa, RRC, confirm if FD or not, Undertow imo is the way to go.

Like that c.S, j.K fuzzy also was kinda totally pointless ^^

[daymendou]

It's not clear in the video whether it cost 75 or 25 meter. Obviously at 75 it's pretty useless, but I think there's the possibility that it could refund the 50 used on super like the DI YRC trick.

The c.S j.K fuzzy might be to beat c.S IB backdash/throw? No clue

[Elemenope]

It seems clear to me that it takes 75 meter. DI YRC/Super YRC doesn't actually "refund" the 50 meter. I believe the 50 meter is only taken at super flash, which is supported by I-no's land cancelled air super and people getting hit out of super startup prior to superflash but it not taking any meter (at least the supers I and my friend uses). In all of the videos I've seen of where people use super>YRC from even just last week to about a year ago, only 25 meter is shown as used as well - it doesn't decrease by 50, get replenished by 50, then decreased by 25 which is what the DHD>YRC video shows.

 

Additionally - the super actually comes out as evidenced by being put in blockstun. I'd say it's more likely that this uses 75 meter compared to DHD being the only super that will allow you to replenish 50 meter if you YRC it *after* super flash.

[fogelstrom]

When you YRC your character is reset so training mode puts you back at 100% tension. When the super flash occurs you always consume 50% tension. Hence this is super specific situation. I don't think Taka is really intending this or c.S, j.K fuzzy to be intended as tech to use in matches but more of showcasing it's tech.

[koufdell]

AFAIK you can tail hit standing zato-1 with TK sdd but you ahve to be close so ... i do't see the tech here sorry taka

Edited October 7, 2015 by koufdell

[probe]

Has anyone seen footage of that 25 dan Slayer yet, or know who he is?

[daymendou]

Sign 1.1 profile: http://www.ggxrd.com/pg/member_profile_view.php?user_id=10128

Revelator profile: http://www.ggxrd.com/pg2/member_profile_view.php?user_id=1251

Nagano player ranking: http://www.ggxrd.com/pg2/ranking_view.php?mode=exe&type=psr_rank&pref=34&character=all&pref=32

At ARC Revo, his team got eliminated 2nd round by Unusual (Machaboo, Dogura, Inoue). Once ARC Revo starts getting uploaded we'll have footage but otherwise it's impossible to tell how good he actually is.

[probe]

Oh were offstream matches recorded? That'd definitely be nice to see.

[fogelstrom]

I'm drying to see F Driver (that's how the ones I talk with refer to him) play as well. 82% winrate.... that's sick. Longest win streak 43 wins. Would have been awesome if he could visit and play at Mikado :)

[_Sey]

92% win rate vs. Zato with ~550 matches in that match up?! it's his most played match up too..

He's ranked 'Bounty hunter' now too!

Old 1.0 vid of him playing Ruu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM2EpIyA4Lw

 

On a completely different note: does Slayer have safejump setups?

I randomly read about how Sol can safejump and OS Sin's dp so I've been trying to figure out if Slayer can do anything like that, what I've found is:

vs. Sin @ corner: 5D > Pile K > 6P wait a few frames and neutral jHS OS 2141PP (or 2141KP)

On block/hit you get jHS 2P, if he DPs pilebunker p comes out and CH him.

Now, obviously we can't reliably setup this without meter, and I'm not too sure if it's worth it meter/damage wise, but I guess it could be useful/can be flashed out somehow?

[probe]

There was some 6 dan Slayer on the Arcsys Halloween stream that got 2nd I think. Possibly F Driver on a new card for some reason? Even if it's not, I still wonder who he is.

https://youtu.be/sCc_vaoE9hs?t=4h53m11s