[Xrd] Bedman Gameplay Discussion

[JasonSlade]

I can't really get the hang of Bedman's air movement yet. Using it like a double jump with 789 is easy enough but doing consistent 86 and 83 on a stick is giving me problems.

 

Speaking of air pressure, j.D is +6 but it gives you a really weird bounce after it. Not sure what that is useful for other than instant overheads.

[Jocelot]

Well the bounce gives you a bit more air if you want to do a air Task C. At max height its safe on block so If I hit it air to air on the rare occasion I do that. Don't take my word for it, though.

[NecroTheReaper]

Well, I'd say his air pressure is where his throw game comes into play with j.KP(P)>Grab. Little enough hitstun, can mix between j.K>j.S for more blockstun upon landing. Because of this, you could also do j.D as an air pressure combo extender when close enough to both the ground and the opponent. If it hits, j.P will (if j.D is +6) be very, very hard to get out of. Buuuuut, getting to that golden distance for j.D to connect after a blocked move is a different story. Even if you're not at that goldeb distance, unless they DP, you tell me if they can AA j.D>j.D>j.D reliably with its large downward hitbox xD

[rubedo777]

Jump cancelling 5H on the second hit is one of the best ways to get into jD range, since it has a vaccuum effect. It's a particularly good thing to do if you often go for sweeps.

[NecroTheReaper]

Typically that'd go into the IOH j.D though. That was just my thoughts about what other uses j.D served, though I do suppose you could do a neutral jump>falling j.D

[GKHiryu]

Important thing about j.D is that you can chain into it. I've come up with a pressure string that works best in corner using chain to j.D.

 

On wakeup you can do ADF j.K > j.D, then use the bounce for j.H. You will hit with j.D very low to the ground, so as j.H comes out it will be very close to a tight blockstring.

Ofc it can be beaten and the timing/spacing is dependent on million of factors so I recommend checking it out in training before attempting it in a match. Still, if you hit with j.H you can confirm with land > 2K into whatever. If they block you're still in very good situation. So far it worked well if I already used ADF j.K > j.S a few times and want to mix it up a little.

[NecroTheReaper]

Oooook... testing out safejump setups... for some reason you can safejump VV (both versions) after a 236S KD, but its the strangest safejump in that you clash with VV. What? Point blank is apparently too close for VV? Lol

[rubedo777]

What's a KD?

[NecroTheReaper]

Knock down. And I was usin falling j.S just to clarify

[rubedo777]

Just tested and yeah it works...not useful if the opponent knows it's a clash.

[NecroTheReaper]

Falling j.HS only clashes with SVV so there's always other options. Dunno why everything clashes though

Edit: disregard that, I'm getting mixed results with j.HS

[rubedo777]

So I've been watching a lot of Bedman videos...pretty much everything and damn...even though Mitsuru doesn't seem to play anymore, I feel like his movement is better than all the other Bedmans. I really enjoy watching even his really old matches.

 

Though overall, I think Tsubu has the most complete gameplay and the most complex setups. Nakasu and Sabamisu are strong too but I put Mitsuru/Tsubu above them.

 

Tsubu's setups...I feel like they are only going to work against a good opponent that understands what's going on. Attempting these kind of setups against netplayers will just lead to failure I think.

[NecroTheReaper]

If the average netplayer is a mashy person that has to press a button every second they're not getting hit, I can see that. But then you can just make them eat frametraps out of f.S>2HS and stuff.

So what do you people think of using 5HS>tk j.236S RRC for extended pressure use. It has a gap, but not one big enough to jump out of or mash, so they'd be forced to DP if they got one. I like this because you RC after the third hit, get a seal, hit j.K while falling out of j.236S, and now have them in blockstun with a task B seal.

[Dullyanna]

tk 236S RC is also cute b/c it beats a lot of lows and on any hit you can get jS after the RC into w/e xx bedslam combo. If I think they're going to press buttons or try stuff after fS I do it sometimes, because at worse you get dp'd/supered or pressure on block for 50% meter.

 

As far as netplay setups, after good bedslam kd all you need is 214H then instant jD (Might have to walk forward a tiny bit), jump forward FD or any low you want. If they crouch block and respect you on wakeup you can mix in throw in corner.

[SectumSsempra]

I find the netplays, oh crap im blocking, pppp and ppp blockstrings give me hell.

The setups with task on knockdown usually get me thrown.

Sword pole etc normals from a character length away leave you with no option but hoping 2s can outrange it, especially with reversal supers range.

Our pressure feels limited but ive added the jump cancel stuff, just wish the best pressure option wasnt 886 jk jpp

The 886 jk js 5s only leaves you close enough for one hit of 5h.

If anything ive said is false please let me know, especially dealing with character length normals, (faust, sin, ky, venom)

[rubedo777]

Alright so I need to know...regarding 6H.

 

If done at neutral...say, Bedman is walking up to you and then does 6H, you can block it whether you are holding left or right. However, if Bedman say, does a 236K to teleport up to the opponent and then does 6H immediately after, it has to be blocked as a crossup.

 

Is there something buggy about this move? When exactly does it have to be blocked as a crossup and why?

[GKHiryu]

Alright so I need to know...regarding 6H.

 

If done at neutral...say, Bedman is walking up to you and then does 6H, you can block it whether you are holding left or right. However, if Bedman say, does a 236K to teleport up to the opponent and then does 6H immediately after, it has to be blocked as a crossup.

 

Is there something buggy about this move? When exactly does it have to be blocked as a crossup and why?

 

The attack moves a certain distance forward, during part of that movement Bedman disappears. As such, if the opponent is close enough BE will reappear on the other side. You can check it out yourself by just standing right in front of opponent (outside throw range ofc) and using 6H, it will then cross up as well. The reason it doesn't happen after 236K is because you recover before the opponent does, so although you are in throw range you cannot throw, as the opponent is still in blockstun. Simple as that.

 

EDIT: I've never been in a situation where 6H can be blocked in any way, I don't believe that is actually possible. This isn't SF4 after all.

[rubedo777]

The attack moves a certain distance forward, during part of that movement Bedman disappears. As such, if the opponent is close enough BE will reappear on the other side. You can check it out yourself by just standing right in front of opponent (outside throw range ofc) and using 6H, it will then cross up as well. The reason it doesn't happen after 236K is because you recover before the opponent does, so although you are in throw range you cannot throw, as the opponent is still in blockstun. Simple as that.

That's not what I'm asking.

 

The move can be blocked either way even if visually, it switches sides...except in certain cases, when it actually does crossup like it's supposed to.

 

Test it yourself. Set the cpu to be Bedman...record a 6H. Then position your character close to Bedman but not at throw range of course, so that visually, the 6H will switch sides. Even if it switches sides, it can be blocked either direction.

 

But if you 6H after a 236K, it has to be blocked the other way (as a true crossup).

[Tiamat]

I could be wrong but from what limited messing around I've done with 6H before:

1) To crossup you must be very close.  Throw range close.  I don't even know if it's possible to crossup from outside throw range.  Maybe just barely outside grab range can work.

2) If they are in blockstun crossup is impossible

 

Based on these conditions, my current impression is that you can basically only do it as a crossup after a knockdown so that you won't be able to throw them (they haven't quite stood up yet).

 

edit: actually yeah since it can work from the 236K on guard I guess it can work from just barely outside grab range

[rubedo777]

I could be wrong but from what limited messing around I've done with 6H before:

1) To crossup you must be very close.  Throw range close.  I don't even know if it's possible to crossup from outside throw range.  Maybe just barely outside grab range can work.

2) If they are in blockstun crossup is impossible

 

Based on these conditions, my current impression is that you can basically only do it as a crossup after a knockdown so that you won't be able to throw them (they haven't quite stood up yet).

 

edit: actually yeah since it can work from the 236K on guard I guess it can work from just barely outside grab range

 

Yes it seems to be the case...

However, at neutral, I was trying the same range as when you do 6H after a 236K, and it would still not crossup. Why is that?

 

Edit: Knocking them down and then doing a 6H up close, does crossup.

 

Nvm, with enough playing around of the distances, got it to crossup at neutral...but it's very picky.

 

Bottomline for this move is, even if it switches sides, it doesn't mean it has to be blocked the other way. Seems like the only reliable way to get it to be a true crossup is after 236K or on wakeup.

[Tiamat]

I'm not sure I will have to look at it again.

 

I assume that from the 236K it works something like this.  You're at frame advantage and you press 6H.  No matter how close you are since you're at frame advantage it won't let you grab them, so it just starts up 6H.  However, since 6H is a slow move by the time it actually hits them they are no longer in the blockstun from the 236K and it crosses up.  

 

What happens if you wait a longer time (like just stand there for a whole second for example) after the 236K is blocked then do 6H?  does it grab them?  or does it still do 6H?

[rubedo777]

I'm not sure I will have to look at it again.

 

I assume that from the 236K it works something like this.  You're at frame advantage and you press 6H.  No matter how close you are since you're at frame advantage it won't let you grab them, so it just starts up 6H.  However, since 6H is a slow move by the time it actually hits them they are no longer in the blockstun from the 236K and it crosses up.  

 

What happens if you wait a longer time (like just stand there for a whole second for example) after the 236K is blocked then do 6H?  does it grab them?  or does it still do 6H?

 

Well...

 

If 236K hits from the front, you aren't in throw range. I waited a second and then did 6H. It executed, but it wasn't a crossup (even though it switched sides).

 

Edit: I got it...to get it to crossup after 236K, you have to walk up a slight bit when doing 6H...maybe a pixel or more. If you just do 6H with no moving forward, it doesn't crossup. Because of the hitstun/blockstun of 236K, you're able to move forward into throw range and 6H without throwing them.

[rubedo777]

Anyway the reason I decided to test this was that I was using 6H in instances where opponent wasn't necessarily in hitstun/blockstun and I was just outside throw range. The opponent was blocking it surprisingly well even though it was switching sides. I was surprised because the opponent actually wasn't very good but was unusually good at reacting to this crossup, so I went to test in the lab and behold, it was never actually crossing up in those situations.

[Tiamat]

Yeah makes sense.  I'll have to look at the move more it's pretty beefy if you can hit them with it.  Shame it can't corner crossup that would be really dirty 8)

[rubedo777]

If your 236K hits from behind, you don't even have to move forward with 6H. You can 6H immediately, for a double crossup (well, double crossup in the sense that they will prepare to block the other way since you teleported behind them, but you will crossup back to the original way with 6H).

 

Of course this is still very prone to getting counterthrown, so you have to mix it up with doing 2K immediately after 236K (they are in blockstun so if they are mashing throw and you do 2K instead, they will get hit). This threat should make them respect the situation and not mash throw.