[CP] Ragna Gameplay Discussion

[floatwater]

then explain me this Mac. Why does everyone still fall for Gurren (i think that's it) Grab? TELL ME THIS DOOD.

They both have different styles of pressure, in the end. . Haku still comes out on top. not to mention the matchup itself is so wishy washy.

[toanenadiz]

It's Kishuu, not Guren.

[MashThat5A]

As much as I would love to continue arguing about I character I never mained, I'd look pretty stupid in doing so.

[skd]

from the perspective of an (arguably) high level player, i feel MUCH safer blocking vs ragna than hakumen and ex kune.

i highlighted a word. its important.

also by the way crossfire, 22C DC Dead spike DC does work as a combo.

[mAc Chaos]

As what character, Noel?

So by saying you feel safer blocking, you're saying that against the other characters you feel that their pressure has enough holes that it is easier to poke out than Ragna.

And Toan it is Gurren. Gurren > throw is an old technique but it never works for me anymore. It is plus on block, so if they try to jab out they are going to eat a throw. Most people can see it coming though and DP or throw break. And that's if it wasn't IB'd. Gurren is easy to IB.

To expand on Hakumen's pressure:

His pressure basically consists of a series of one-shot strings that need to be extended using stars, and still burn out quickly. So all the opponent has to do is just wait Haku out and with each star he spends he has less options. Most of his pressure has big gaps that let you jump out or backdash for free, and stopping that usually requires a good read.

His pressure can get pretty intense if the Haku can pin down the other player and get them to sit still, but that only happens after you condition them. In other words, the other player has to LET you do it. You do that with Hotaru and some reads, but just taking his pressure as-is, it has tons of holes. The main value in it is using various frame traps to counter whatever way out you think they will take, or condition them to favor a certain one and then abuse that.

Now, other characters in comparison can do this easily, but it's just one facet of their pressure. Ragna, Hazama, Noel, pretty much any character with the ability to run can just do a sliding 2A/2B to maintain stagger pressure and to stay in. The difference is that unlike Hakumen, they can repeatedly use this, since he only has his hop, and that it doesn't require stars.

So that's why I'd rank those kinds of characters as having better pressure.

Edited May 10, 2013 by mAc Chaos

[skd]

Well, to make it more clear, i feel safer being on the receiving side of pressure in ragna's case, comparatively speaking. Im less inclined by the threat of stronger mixup or callouts to do anything riskier. SO while i may be blocking a lot, i would judge that ragna's pressure is /weaker/ than someone like hakumen.

And as ragna too! of course i could dp or bdash or mash out accordingly, but i said blocking because i meat well...blocking. there are definitely other aspects of dealing with pressure, but blocking is (well, to me at least) the single most prominent one. Blocking is...generally how you deal with pressure, i would think?

[mAc Chaos]

Well, I meant that if their pressure was solid, you would pretty much be forced to block. Whereas if it had a ton of gaps, you would have an easy time poking out. In which case, you would probably just poke out of their pressure and seize the offense again rather than just sit there and let them continue and pressure you.

[skd]

Well, I meant that if their pressure was solid, you would pretty much be forced to block. Whereas if it had a ton of gaps, you would have an easy time poking out. In which case, you would probably just poke out of their pressure and seize the offense again rather than just sit there and let them continue and pressure you.

im assuming this is at a decent level where my opponent would be aware of something like this, and if im assuming pressure is good/respectable, there are probably reasons for it (aka no, you probably couldnt just poke and mash out of it. why else would i want to block over turning things around?).

Im already considering that element, essentially. the major thing that dictates these things is riskreward, and IMO hakumen has a jolly good time driving that aspect.

Edited May 10, 2013 by not_lunaris

[mAc Chaos]

Huh. My own experience is pretty much the opposite. I can just plant my feet and block other Hakumen's pressure all day, right from them having 8 stars to 0, and then make my move. His pressure is very... linear and rigid, if that makes sense. Whereas with Ragna, I always end up having trouble because he will pull out some RC shenanigans or crossup Inferno Dividers to crack my defense, and that's with the stagger pressure on top of it.

This is EX though. CP he will have less heat, but the point is basically the same.

I'm also confused how you feel that Hakumen's pressure demands more respect than Ragna's, even taking into account the player being competent and making up for the gaps, since the gaps are still there and are exploitable if you are waiting for them.

Which parts of Ragna's pressure do you think pale in comparison to Hakumen's? Or what do you think is especially better about Hakumen's. You mentioned risk / reward but that is more a function of damage than pressure. For instance, if there was a character who had pretty much perfectly safe normals that forced you to respect them, but did only 2k off most combos, I would still say they had good pressure even though they don't do that much damage. Whereas a character on the opposite side, one that does great damage but has worse normals that are easier to disrespect would be more suited to punishing than pressure.

[Fluck]

What the fuck. Arakune's pressure shits all over Ragna's. Rising j.B can't be anti-aired except by DPs, considering it's a fucking instant overhead.

A large part of why Hakumen's pressure is stronger is just because he has j.B which is...really hard to anti-air basically.

[mAc Chaos]

The way most Ragnas deal with j.B when I fight them is to IB it and then just DP or 5A.

And by most Ragnas I mean the one I have fought in like the last year.

And by that I mean Kay Eff. Sup brah

[Fluck]

If the only way to deal with j.B is to block it and then guess a DP situation, then I don't know about you, but I think that's pretty damn fucked up pressure. There is nothing Ragna (or most other characters) has that is anywhere on that level. IBing and 5A is possible but it depends on spacing and such, and the situation overall is hardly against Hakumen's favor.

[mAc Chaos]

Nah, I won't dispute j.B being da gawd. But I need to test something related to it in training mode real quick...

[Skye]

What the fuck. Arakune's pressure shits all over Ragna's. Rising j.B can't be anti-aired except by DPs, considering it's a fucking instant overhead.

A large part of why Hakumen's pressure is stronger is just because he has j.B which is...really hard to anti-air basically.

Really! Why do people keep bringing up the match up?

No one was talking about the match up.

[Fluck]

Dude...It's got nothing to do with the matchup. I didn't say Inferno Divider, did I? Arakune's pressure shits all over EVERYONE once he's in. I mentioned the rising j.B to prove that. It's got nothing to do with Ragna.

[Skye]

Rising j.b is character specific.

Plus I'm interested to know why and how you think Arakune's pressure is perfect, in my and just about every other Arakune player's experience, he is more passive aggressive than he is rush down, so please, enlighten me.

[MashThat5A]

Not rushdown != bad pressure

[Skye]

Nonetheless, please, I'm open to discussions like these, hell I invite them, though I'd like them to take place in the Arakune forum.

Personally I think that any non-Tager player who says that Arakune's pressure shits on them one-sidedly just isn't aware of their full scope of options, but never mind that.

[Fluck]

Okay, let me put it this way. Arakune gets in, goes into a blockstring, jump cancels something, and then does fastest, lowest possible falling j.B. What do you do? Because in the experience of everyone's who's fought Souji, it seems like there's nothing you can do when he does that. If you're looking purely to react, no 6A is fast enough and even Inferno Divider gets safe jumped. Backdashes gets blown up too. You basically have to guess if he's going to do it to have a chance of anti-airing him and stick the 6A out before he even jumps - if you wait to see him jump it's already too late - and some characters with slower invuln (7F) AAs or just no AAs at all (Bang) have problems doing even that.

Anyway we're getting ridiculously off topic so if anyone wants to continue this discussion we can do it in the Arakune or Haku forums instead.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Fluck

[floatwater]

I'm also confused how you feel that Hakumen's pressure demands more respect than Ragna's, even taking into account the player being competent and making up for the gaps, since the gaps are still there and are exploitable if you are waiting for them.

The fact that all of you scumbags can D through our shit, so (in my EXP) sometimes we spend more of our time trying to bait those for free fatals. but on a more serious note it's D mash and normals. like for ex. 3C (even though we IB and we wanna punish) those DDDDDDDDDDs.

Because in the experience of everyone's who's fought Souji, it seems like there's nothing you can do when he does that. If you're looking purely to react, no 6A is fast enough and even Inferno Divider gets safe jumped. Backdashes gets blown up too.

GOD THIS. ^^^^^ only thing you CAN do is IB. and that "helps" i guess. and i got blown up SO hard by trying to "react" DP.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Crossfire

[BlackYakuzu94]

...Are we still talking about Ragna?

[氷ウルフ]

Sorry for starting such a big argument, guys, I like to see pressure game not in such blunt numbers of frame advantage, but rather the ease of conditioning. And I think that Ragna's pressure tools are solid enough to keep the opponent on their toes. It's not Tao/Hazama/Carl good, but it's certainly better than....say...Tager's, Noel's, Arakune's (imo), and Relius.

Tager's attacks are all high level and can be barriered very easily, Tager doesn't get intimidating until he gets magnetism/knockdown/oki, but from Neutral, imo Tager's pressure is pretty bad and he has to take risks to even get leverage from that. Noel's pressure doesn't do much in the way of conditioning either, since it's mostly stagger pressure and drive, plus once Noel starts using drive for pressure, she's in a really dangerous spot, the drive strings are also not air tight, so characters who can DP can probably do so with confidence that Noel can get punished. Arakune can't do much without curse, I usually see him running away, then using the opponent's efforts to catch him to his advantage. I don't really agree with the lowest j.b thing, I've seen him get blown up for trying. A friend of mine who mains him told me it's kind of hard to condition the (good) opponent before curse. Relius, I'm sure is a controversial pick, but his pressure isn't too scary either, just watch out for whatever overhead he's trying and wait for him to retreat Ignis. His Pressure from the start is very limited and dependent on the Ignis gauge and meter.

On the other hand, Ragna has a variety of decent tools that allows him to pressure the opponent without taking too many risks in doing so. He has good stagger pressure, very good spacing tools that can control the flow of his approach, and an overall solid gatling table, if the opponent doesn't barrier, Ragna doesn't even really have to take risks, since he can end his pressure with 3c and jump away, if your opponent has to barrier out, then either resort to stagger pressure or just let them get away and return to neutral. You guys do say that he has good neutral, getting back in safely shouldn't be that difficult. I really think that Ragna has an average pressure game, it's not too good that he can just derp away and get results, but not terrible that he has to rely completely on certain strings or meter. Sure he can get mashed out or barrier blocked, every character can, even Tao, but the ease of conditioning that makes them not want to is what matters.

How does the Ragna gods go about their pressure, I've seen them at work, but what do you guys see (read: perceive)?

[KayEff]

good ragna players don't rely on pressure, they either rely on neutral or those one-chance moments where the most obscure mixup possible can be done. example, the opponent is in the air and ragna is on the ground. the ragna player runs underneath the opponent as the opponent lands, and as soon as the opponent lands, the ragna player performs a crossup ID.

also, letting the opponent get away from ragna kinda defeats the purpose of pressure.

[氷ウルフ]

How can someone approach and not rely on pressure?

[MashThat5A]

Oh god, I figured it out. You all think pressure = strictly blockstun. I'm done here.

Edited May 11, 2013 by MashThat5A