[CP] Ragna Gameplay Discussion

[TheBossGiga]

His pressure is SOLID. I would say he's one of those type of characters that if you get ahead of yourself with him you'll get blown up. pick and choose your strings wisely, keep them tight and occasionally risk it. He'll always be High risk/Mid-high reward(?). it's not like with Litchi, Relius, Carl where they have other things that can cover the holes that they have. And people with high mobility like Tao where pressure is, very low.

Yeh, I agree with this. His pressure is pretty solid for what it is. His pressure isn't really about getting you in and keeping you blocking forever and its not something that you can auto-pilot and be successful(ugh.. kinda). He has during his pressure (while he has it) tools take care of and punish most situations if he reads it. He can frame trap after almost every normal, punish up back after every non-drive normal, kind of punish downback (usually only one chance at this 2 if your close during pressure) its just that his pressure reset options come in 2 flavors, either pretty obvious or pretty risky. Because of this his pressure isn't more about keeping the opponent blocking forever its more about getting in and doing what you want to fast because you don't have many chances.

The thing is contrary to popular belief his pressure isn't something you can auto pilot and be successful(kinda...) If you want results with his pressure you really have to have a decent understanding of the game, what each normal and string is good for, and what your opponent will want to do in each that situation. How good his offense is really relies on you imo. This is because even though he has most options available to deal with the opp's choices during his pressure while it lasts you have to pick and chose what you'll want to do because their either-or in most situations, like You can Frametrap if you want but you wont effectively deal with up or down back, or you could go for an overhead if you want but you will lose to mash and wont effectively deal with up-back.

When he has meter though he becomes a different beast entirely though(which is always in EX).

That aside It's because of this that the difference between a mid level rags and a high level rags pressure is so stark in terms of fear factor. There's a bit more u could say but i don't wanna drop books so theres my 43cents.

Anyway imo CP rag looks decent. I'm still hurt that he lost his 2c fatal that imo was the biggest hit to his pressure and in a really close second its the loss of gats after 6b cuz now without meter you almost have no chance of resetting pressure after a failed overhead other than that he looks pretty good

Edited May 7, 2013 by TheBossGiga
Making it a little easier to read

[Cheefoo]

Crossup j623D is a lot more rewarding now, too. I don't seem to see many people going for that very much, however.

On the topic of D divider, is there any other fatal with 7 frame startup in the game?

[MashThat5A]

Good pressure makes you feel like you need to commit to something to get out of it. Ragna's pressure is "If I keep barrier blocking and holding up back, I'll eventually get out."

Everything is adequate with outstanding damage to back it up. You might think it's good because the one time you catch them doing something dumb you get rewarded heavily for it. However, once the reward is gone...

Also, because of the 5C hitbox nerf, Ragna can't deal with upback. You either need to commit to the 5D and if you're wrong they're out or whiff the 5C and let them go.

Edited May 7, 2013 by MashThat5A

[TheBossGiga]

Lows beat up back and rag has a low from all of his non D normals and most frame trap so if you wanna frametrap and beat upback as well so if you read either you can beat it. Delayed gatlings can also beat upback although not as well as lows but they also frame trap and usually have higher reward. I understand what your getting at though because the longer his pressure goes on his it funnels into increasingly riskier options so you probably act like they don't exist.

On the 5c thing are you talking about during neutral or when you've established pressure? Because I don't think there are any instances where you can gatling into 5c and there is a big enough gap where the someone can jump away from a 5c.... do you mean like after you try reset pressure?

Edited May 8, 2013 by TheBossGiga

[floatwater]

I'd say he's referring to established pressure, if you are in neutral the better option is to air grab.

[Fluck]

Isn't dead spike faster and more plus in CP now? Easier to jump over, of course, but it looks better than the EX version.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Good pressure makes you feel like you need to commit to something to get out of it. Ragna's pressure is "If I keep barrier blocking and holding up back, I'll eventually get out."

With CTs being introduced though this may be a desirable form of pressure; one that forces the enemy to expend their Barrier gauge. And honestly I think just about everyone's pressure, with possible exception to Tao's, is undermined by Barrier block.

[Fluck]

Lows beat up back and rag has a low from all of his non D normals and most frame trap so if you wanna frametrap and beat upback as well so if you read either you can beat it. Delayed gatlings can also beat upback although not as well as lows but they also frame trap and usually have higher reward. I understand what your getting at though because the longer his pressure goes on his it funnels into increasingly riskier options so you probably act like they don't exist.

On the 5c thing are you talking about during neutral or when you've established pressure? Because I don't think there are any instances where you can gatling into 5c and there is a big enough gap where the someone can jump away from a 5c.... do you mean like after you try reset pressure?

Btw, here Mash is talking about the 5B (air hit) 5C combo route which leads into 4k+ if you're near the corner and doesn't work any more in CP. If you land a 5B air hit in CP the gatling to 5C will always whiff.

[MashThat5A]

Exactly. And 5B is used a lot in pressure resets.

[Skye]

That is unfortunate, I remember back in CS2, the Ragna mains agreed that 5b > 5d was easier, not to mention 5b > 6a, which I think would be the better confirm anyway in CP considering tk BS can offer relaunch and corner carry.

Considering the combo system, Ragna isn't at too much a loss for damage.

He's probably SOL if 5b connects at max range though.

[floatwater]

6A lost JC on block and 5D isn't really that great of an option, you would have to COMMIT HARD on that, and if they block you're pretty much open.

[Circuitous]

Skye, a little birdy told me you were being irresponsibly ignorant. Please stop.

[MashThat5A]

That is unfortunate, I remember back in CS2, the Ragna mains agreed that 5b > 5d was easier, not to mention 5b > 6a, which I think would be the better confirm anyway in CP considering tk BS can offer relaunch and corner carry.

Okay, I'm getting tired of this. I'm going to go through both of those options and explain why they're bad ideas.

5B>5D:

5D recovery is faster, so you're not going to get punished easily if at all when they block this in the air, especially since they will need to use barrier on the 5D in the air which will push them very far away. But guess what, either way, jump or no jump, you lost pressure if they block. And to make things worse, if they block 5B and the air barrier block pushed them far enough away so that 5D whiffs, then...yeah.

5B>6A:

This is even worse. If they block at all you just did 6A on block. No jump cancel. That's not even considering that the air barriered 5B didn't push them out of 6A range in the first place. 6A in CP is -11. Anything you do to keep it "safe" after that is a risk. And you need to do something.

Again, this is why I think his pressure is bad. Sure, his pressure is "good" when the opponent is just sitting there, but what character doesn't have good pressure in that situation? Ragna's problem is that limiting your opponents options in pressure while keeping it diverse involves taking a risk, where as characters with actual good pressure (Tao, Litchi), can limit options while staying safe. And, being wrong with them doesn't end pressure.

Edited May 8, 2013 by MashThat5A

[KayEff]

welcome to my life john

[Skye]

Oh nonono, I want speaking under the pretense that Ragna was pressuring the opponent, I was talking about confirming off of 5b air hit. As in catching a failed upback. Please don't be so rash.

Geez guys, I figured the context made that obvious.

[Lucalibur]

If it's a CH then waiting for 5B's recovery to end then going for dash 5B works, but outside of that, yeah, SOL.

[skd]

Oh nonono, I want speaking under the pretense that Ragna was pressuring the opponent, I was talking about confirming off of 5b air hit. As in catching a failed upback. Please don't be so rash.

Geez guys, I figured the context made that obvious.

im curious as to when you think this situation comes up

[Skye]

I've seen it happen all the time. Heck I distinctly remember a discussion about it In CS2. Is it impractical to consider the possibility?

[Gramas]

Crossup j623D is a lot more rewarding now

no..damage is nerfed(4.5k midscreen 5k midscreen to corner in CSE)

[skd]

no..damage is nerfed(4.5k midscreen 5k midscreen to corner in CSE)

unless theres something im not aware of in EX, midscreen combo damage went way, way up which is most of the time you will get to use crossup ID. In terms of practicality...imo its a buff.

what would you do to get 4.5k midscreen? :>

[Airk]

And honestly I think just about everyone's pressure, with possible exception to Tao's, is undermined by Barrier block.

Isn't that kinda what barrier is FOR?

[heavymetalmixer]

Question: Can we use air hit Hells Fang(1) for setting Okizeme?

This question comes from this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ1hUNyuzeQ#t=20m08

Edited May 8, 2013 by heavymetalmixer

[KayEff]

i've been running 3C > 214A midscreen okizeme for quite some time now, it shouldn't (hopefully) be anything new to you guys

as for corner knockdown, i don't think hell's fang has enough hitstun to be effective in severe hitstun reduction.

[floatwater]

Whut KF said, it's a nice option. preferably midscreen though. . it is ballsy lol.

[ADS627]

it was great in EX when you could catch em with 22c if they didnt tech.