[UNIEL] Carmine

[Bmeister]

I just did some testing on the command grab super, it heals for more than 1200, but less than 1350, so I think it's safe to say that it heals for its base damage (1265). It also seems to heal for its base damage even when its used late into a combo, though the minimum scaling on it is pretty terrible.

 

Also, I recently threw together a Carmine CMV. It's mostly flashy impractical combos, but there are some useful things in there as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3hlbzuj4sM&list=UUnmEG5gRMwdd9-imNL0pK3w

[KuukuuOmoi]

Love it

[KuukuuOmoi]

Bmeister do you have match recordings of you playing carmine online?

[Bmeister]

No I don't, sorry, I don't really play online that often.

[KuukuuOmoi]

Womp womp. I just got the game and was practicing. So was seeing what combos I'd shoot for if I wasn't trying to be dropping everything online

[Xtra_Zero]

Yo just FYI, the Mizuumi wiki still has 6B in places where it should say j.6B.  Could use some fixing and I don't consider myself good enough at Carmine yet to fix it.

[Killey]

Yo just FYI, the Mizuumi wiki still has 6B in places where it should say j.6B.  Could use some fixing and I don't consider myself good enough at Carmine yet to fix it.

 

Can you provide an example of what's incorrect? I've been updating the wiki so just wondering what's wrong exactly.

[KuukuuOmoi]

Wait. For the Linne comments above in which combos drop what is the timing for getting the 3b -> 2c timing

[Xtra_Zero]

 

Can you provide an example of what's incorrect? I've been updating the wiki so just wondering what's wrong exactly.

 

For example, in the 5A/5B starter section,

5A, 5B, 2C, 6B, 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j.[C], 66C

should be

5A, 5B, 2C, j.6B 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j.[C], 66C

Unless I'm missing something really obvious, 6B hits but then won't let you continue the combo.  J.6B works.  Anywhere you see 6B -> 2C I'm pretty sure it should be j.6B.

[Killey]

No, that combos correctly. You can do 5A, 5B, 2C, 6B, 2C etc... If your second 2C whiffs it means you're doing it too slow.

[Rhiya]

it should be 6b

 

you only get one jump cancel per combo, so

[NecroTheReaper]

I'm curious about a different part of the same combo. Is there a reason to use 236A over 236B? Somethin about using 236B made things easier for me, specifically when trying to pick up with dash 2B (his dash drives me insane). I decided to try out Carmine cuz everyone was telling me that being a Relius and A.B.A main, I'd love his gameplay.

[Killey]

You can use 236A or B. It doesn't really matter either way. I simply listed as the A version as I was just doing straight notations from the combo video.

[jo-p]

Wait. For the Linne comments above in which combos drop what is the timing for getting the 3b -> 2c timing

In my experience its all about delaying the jump loop as much as possible to get 3B -> 2C to combo her. Linne needs to be as low to the ground as possible by the time 3B comes out. Not sure if its timing or luck but try using j.ACB instead of j.ABC or whatever your using in your combo. Let me know if this helps!

[jo-p]

So I feel like i've reached a wall with my mixups as Carmine. As my rank gets higher and higher I feel like I'm having so much more difficulty opening people up. I think i've gone pretty stale. What do you guys do to keep your oki fresh? 

[Killey]

Whatever your imagination allows really. I'm going to elaborate on this in the wiki at some point.

 

236A Oki:

 

dash throw/63214C (236A doesn't hit immediately when they quick tech so there's a gap for them to be thrown)

dash 6[C]

2B/5A/5B, 6[C]

2B, wait, 2B (catches people who want either want to poke out the over head or anticipation block to 6[C])

Half charge 6C, 2C or 623A/B

6[C], chain shift (on block), 6[C] or 2C

Assault j.C

Assault j.[C] whiff, 2B

Assault j.[C] whiff, 6[C]

Assault j.[C] whiff, Assault j.C

Assault j.[C] whiff, throw/63214C

Assault j.A, Chain Shift, j.B (double overhead)

Air Assault, j.C (swap sides)

Air Assault, do nothing/j.[C] whiff, 6[C] - You swap sides in this mix up

Infinite blockstring (214[A], 236A x N) - Within this I lay 214[A] then go for a mix up

Do nothing and bait reversal or buttons

 

214[A/B] Oki:

 

All 6[C] mix ups apply

All assault j.[C] whiff mix ups apply

last second assault j.C - Throw Bait

dash, back dash, ]A/B[ - Baits wake up throw, reversal, buttons

assault j.A, ]A[

walk back, dash throw - Can be done with either A or B charge because the blood trap doesn't hit right away

Block string, leave a gap, ]A[ - Baiting counter pokes

5A/B xx 236A/B xx 63214C

[Magaki]

Wait. For the Linne comments above in which combos drop what is the timing for getting the 3b -> 2c timing

After 2B for the 2B>jABC route, you have to slightly delay before the jA. Allow you to have Linne quite close to you and the ground when you do jC and will always make 3B>2C connect. Delay jA however works on the whole cast so it's better to learn the combo by practicing on her in order to make sure that it's universal.

 

 

I'm curious about a different part of the same combo. Is there a reason to use 236A over 236B? Somethin about using 236B made things easier for me, specifically when trying to pick up with dash 2B (his dash drives me insane). I decided to try out Carmine cuz everyone was telling me that being a Relius and A.B.A main, I'd love his gameplay.

If you're at point blank, there is no difference. However, in several combos, 236B will whiff if the opponent is too far while 236A will work. There is also some instance when 236B> dash C doesn't work when 236A> dash C do. That's pretty much why 236B is considered to just be a neutral tool and not a combo filler.

 

 

So I feel like i've reached a wall with my mixups as Carmine. As my rank gets higher and higher I feel like I'm having so much more difficulty opening people up. I think i've gone pretty stale. What do you guys do to keep your oki fresh? 

First, keep in mind that whenever you go for the pseudo-infinite, everytime you make your opponent block a 214[A/B], he has to guess whether you're gonna throw or keep the blockstring going so make sure to work on that and add it in your game. Carmine easily got the best throw game so abusing it pretty much a requirement. Learning 6B~AD kara throw helps a lot too. Forget about all that though against Merkava.

There is also nothing wrong with deciding to just keep using the pseudo-infinite for a very long time. Keep in mind that not a lot of people are willing to block for 20 seconds straight and end up pressing buttons. However, if they do block for that long, it means that they are willing to respect you. In that case, you can go for 214[A]>mixup>]A[ which is simply our best way to mixup while being safe. MAKE SURE that the opponent respect you before doing that though because otherwise ]A[ will be canceled before you activate it.

Of course, you're gonna lose some health by doing that. It doesn't matter though as long as you're confident and know for sure how to make your opponent unable to escape your pressure.

Additionnal notes to Killey's list:

Half-charge mixups in UNiEL are far from being as efficient as its MB counterpart. Problem with it is that the half charge is only slightly delayed which is still too fast for the opponent to react. That's why if you do half-charge 6C>2C and it opens the opponent up, it's not because he reacted to the 6C but simply because he tried to either jump out of pressure or mash reversals. So nah, it's not really something that can be considered reliable.

As for assault jA, it's character specific and there are 3 starters for it:

236A>assault jA(hit)>236A hit>5A>combo midscreen or corner

214[A]>assault jA>]A[

assault jA>CS>jB

Most damaging and easiest combo is the ]A[ route. The 236A route is the easiest and safest to setup (236A keeps hitting after jA if you had the right timing meaning you keep your blood pressure). Problem is that the rewards won't be that great and, most of all, it's quite hard execution-wise so it will require some work in order to consistently pull it off in matches.

I would suggest to learn the 3 of them though as it's quite hard to block it even offline.

IIRC, I made a character specific list in that thread but I don't think that I mentionned everything about it. It whiffs completely on some characters but it also whiffs on others only at point blank. I can't access my PS3 right now so I'll make a list again later when I'll have more time.

Also, assault>delay jC is quite important simply because usually, jC is done right after an assault in order to make it as fast as possible (it technically got the same startup as Linne's jC or Hyde's jB which is 12 and they mentionned in Senaru's tutorial that Linne's assault jC is quite hard to react to. Don't have any other Linne, Carmine or Hyde in my offline scene so I don't know how hard it is to block IRL so I'll just trust Senaru.).

So you will end up against people with the mindset: "If an attack isn't done right after an assault, a low or throw will happen so better throw now."

Which will actually screw you up because of the landing recovery so definetely keep it in mind. If you want an overhead as close to the ground as possible, better do assault>delay jA.

P.S: Thanks for the edits on the wiki Killey. It's quite neat now. I saw several mistakes though but I'll take care of it later and post exactly what I edited here in order to talk about it.

[B.Z.B]

So I feel like i've reached a wall with my mixups as Carmine. As my rank gets higher and higher I feel like I'm having so much more difficulty opening people up. I think i've gone pretty stale. What do you guys do to keep your oki fresh? 

 

I really like 6D, j.[C] Wiff, 6D j.c.  I saw Notsu do it and started to incorporate it into my game, scary stuff.  Per Magaki's point, no-one considers an overhead esp if you wiff a j.[C], as it conditions them to block low next.  So start incorporating the extra 6D or just 6[C] when you land.  Also if you are like me if you are just relying on pinwheel pressure you are going to get frustrated.  People can block better when they can anticipate, if they expect a high low mixup off of a pinwheel it will be much harder to open them up.  You gotta frazzel them, get them flustered / not know what to expect.  Mix in 214[A]'s and 5B,B 236B  63214C.

 

Block Pressure with Carmine is really scary, not many people are prepared to block for long strings, mix in wiff A's make it even more frustrating (Ex in corner: Short blockstring wiff A Long Blockstring etc).  Try to condition people to expect the overhead, esp in corner: go for a 22A, 2C, 623A or B (w/ blood).  22A really messes with people since you stop your pressure about as long as a 6[c] and it's a low.   I also like pinwheeling on wakeup and doing j.6D & either a late J.C / J.B Wiff Low / Overhead.

 

Random Qs: Maybe my timing is off w/ 22A, I know its +1 but I can never seem to frame trap it with 5B (like vs Merk etc) what should I be doing after 22A to be a legit frame trap (maybe 623B)?  Also any examples from notsu etc of pseudo infinte / mixups after?  I can't tell if I am doing it properly.

[KuukuuOmoi]

I think the 623 makes that frame trap.

OK guys I'm having issues with the long range characters that can keep me away till I graduate with a doctorate. I feel like I'm in need for some long range set ups/combos to abuse against Hilda vatista and yuzu

[Xtra_Zero]

I think the 623 makes that frame trap.

OK guys I'm having issues with the long range characters that can keep me away till I graduate with a doctorate. I feel like I'm in need for some long range set ups/combos to abuse against Hilda vatista and yuzu

 

For Hilda I just shield until I have enough free meter to 22C

For Vatista I'm fucked because beams and flash kick

Yuzuriha also fucks me for what I hope are obvious reasons.  I have plans for Hilda and Vatista at least, even if they don't work.  Even vs Gordeau and Merkava I have an idea of what to do.  For Yuzuriha I have absolutely no idea whatsoever.

I CAN say though that getting vorpal first in these matches is important so that you can zone back without killing yourself.

[KuukuuOmoi]

some good carmine action. really nice hit confirms in here:

 

http://www.twitch.tv/finestko/b/565996998

 

match starts around 18:20

[lilfoot]

Hey guys! 

 

Been lurking around the Carmine forums for a while. I've been using him exclusively since I got the game a few weeks ago and I really love the character's design. I'm still having a lot of issues understanding the game's neutral, but I'm getting there.

What are people's general game plans? I almost feel like everyone's buttons beat mine. I only have some luck when I play people even scrubbier than I am, or if I'm at mid or full screen and throwing some projectiles or 2C.

What are some safe-ish block strings?

Also, where is there a write up of the pseudo-infinite. I know it involves 236A/B and 214[A/B] to keep the opponent in a vortex, but I can't find the specifics. 

Thanks for the help!

 

[Killey]

I wrote the details of the pseudo-infinite blockstring on the wiki under the mix up section.

 

Carmine has actually really good long range normals, imo. Generally, for his normals you want to use 5B, 2C, 3C, 5C, 6B, j.6B, j.C, and j.[C] at around their max range during the neutral game. For specials, you want to use 236A/B, j.236A/B, and 214[A/B] but when you have blood puddles on the screen you want to incorporate 6B+C, and 623A/B.

 

2C in particular is amazingly fast for that kind of range and lets you convert into a combo any range that leads into mix ups.

 

236A/B controls a lot of space and stops people from assaulting in carlessly. You want to use 236A/B outside of the opponent's range to act as a shield to safely set up 214[A/B], obviously, this doesn't work against zoning characters. If you get 214[A/B] during neutral then you can definitely shift pressure to the opponent and make them navigate through 236A/B and worry about the button release from 214[A/B]. You can even force the situation with 6B+C into the button release and go for pressure/mix ups, as they're blocking the button release. Depending on how close you are you can do button release into 236A/B and then go for a mix up.

[lilfoot]

Thanks, I'll definitely work on that stuff. 

What's the best way to stuff assaults/jump ins? I've tried using 3C as an anti-air but it hasn't panned out for me. Is the best way for me to shield and go for a 5A starter?

In the past I was guard shielding and couldn't figure out why I couldn't punish XD

[Killey]

3C anti-airs at farther ranges but it's slow on start up and you have to understand their angle of approach if you want to use it as an AA. 3B is a more reliable anti-air but there are ways to beat it depending on the character your playing against.