[UNIEL] Vatista

[Celerity]

if you can truly see the overhead.

 

how exactly does this work? can someone explain it?

 

TLDR appears to be: the game stores inputs in memory for x frames, and as long as you keep repeating that input fast enough, it will count as holding a charge. When you flip between 4646 fast enough, or hold a button bound to 4 and mash 6, it counts as charging both directions.

 

Do you think it's practical to use this tech to block overheads while retaining charge for flash kick? Hold downback, see overhead, keep holding back & block overhead while moving the stick to upback, then downback again?

 

I don't know if that would work. Even though you'd be charging back and down-back simultaneously, you need to switch between the two for the game to recognize that you're charging, so there would be gaps between you blocking high and blocking low. At best, you could bind a button to 4, hold that and mash 3 repeatedly to keep your down-charge, which would give you a decent chance at blocking an overhead, but not guaranteed. I don't really see anyone using this in a tournament.

 

Also, you'd get thrown a lot.

[Sharkkato103]

TLDR appears to be: the game stores inputs in memory for x frames, and as long as you keep repeating that input fast enough, it will count as holding a charge. When you flip between 4646 fast enough, or hold a button bound to 4 and mash 6, it counts as charging both directions.

This at least doesn't work on Hitbox. If you are holding 4 (or 6) and press the opposite direction, you get 5. The game doesn't override your old input with the new input, it just gives you neutral. You actually have to alternate between 4 and 6. Not sure if pad can work differently.

[Celerity]

This at least doesn't work on Hitbox. If you are holding 4 (or 6) and press the opposite direction, you get 5. The game doesn't override your old input with the new input, it just gives you neutral. You actually have to alternate between 4 and 6. Not sure if pad can work differently.

 

I see. I think it works differently on pad because of the analog stick counting as a separate input source, so the 4 and the 6 don't cancel each other out. I tried it on stick doing it the hard way and it was...hard, but you should be able to do the inputs fast enough on hitbox to make it consistent without holding a button.

[Sharkkato103]

I see. I think it works differently on pad because of the analog stick counting as a separate input source, so the 4 and the 6 don't cancel each other out. I tried it on stick doing it the hard way and it was...hard, but you should be able to do the inputs fast enough on hitbox to make it consistent without holding a button.

Oh yeah, it's still consistent, just not stupid easy. It gets tiring after about 5 minutes of constant lasers/orbs.

[Errol]

I see. so has anyone been able to put a number on how many frames you have before you need to return? e.g. holding 4, press 6b and return to 4 within 5 frames? etc

[Nobus3r1]

If you see that they're doing the overhead, you're probably better off just flash kicking.

 

I'm not sure there's a scenario where it would be better to block the overhead, when you could just flash kick them out of the overhead and reset the situation back to neutral.

So, sort of on this topic but roughly how much invincibility do the various versions of her flashkick actually have?

[choysauce]

I can't seem to find any data on invul frames for her flashkicks

 

How comfortable are you guys with giving up vorpal to play her ranged game?

or do you guys try to balance with charging and playing the zoning game?

[Celerity]

I believe all versions of Vatista's flash kick are completely invincible from the first frame (frame data). The invuln lasts for a pretty long time after its active frames, and ends about when Vatista's head pops up after the kick. It's definitely possible for both players to whiff if they try to punish too quickly. This seems to be consistent for both A and B versions, anyway; I'm not sure about EX.

 

Vatista's zoning is mostly a distraction, you have to be on top of them to get anything done. I find she's good at maintaining vorpal since it's difficult to walk towards her and she can control the pace of the match pretty well, but you need to alternate between zoning and pressure in order to keep vorpal going. CS is really vital for her mixup, so I've been treating vorpal like my most important resource.

 

Edit: On that note, try to avoid holding down-back with this character in neutral. By default you want to be holding forward or down-forward to gain vorpal and charge the laser, which is crazy strong. Orb should mostly be used after you buffer it from another move, or after holding down-back during a jump.

[dere]

I think GRD management is very MU dependant, some you can't zone at all or very sparingly but for the ones you can remember you can place a bomb in front of you and start charging GRD by holding D, then 5a/5c the bomb if they try to approach. This works wonders to recover GRD quickly after they shield too many of your projectiles. Atepo does this a lot in his series against Jin that's on youtube. With that said, having vorpal is really good with Vatista but if zoning is working I wouldn't mind giving it up tbh, against patient opponents that know what they are doing you're gonna have to take some action though.

[Nobus3r1]

I believe all versions of Vatista's flash kick are completely invincible from the first frame (frame data). The invuln lasts for a pretty long time after its active frames, and ends about when Vatista's head pops up after the kick. It's definitely possible for both players to whiff if they try to punish too quickly. This seems to be consistent for both A and B versions, anyway; I'm not sure about EX.

 

Vatista's zoning is mostly a distraction, you have to be on top of them to get anything done. I find she's good at maintaining vorpal since it's difficult to walk towards her and she can control the pace of the match pretty well, but you need to alternate between zoning and pressure in order to keep vorpal going. CS is really vital for her mixup, so I've been treating vorpal like my most important resource.

 

Edit: On that note, try to avoid holding down-back with this character in neutral. By default you want to be holding forward or down-forward to gain vorpal and charge the laser, which is crazy strong. Orb should mostly be used after you buffer it from another move, or after holding down-back during a jump.

That's good to know though now I'm wondering why you'd ever try to anti-air someone with the Flash Kick A if Flash Kick B has sufficient invulnerability to anti-air, deals more damage and IMO leaves you with a better setup (charge air projectile).

 

I also found something dumb (?) that I don't recall seeing mentioned here but if you alternate between the A and B versions and use hover you can fire off ~7-8 air lasers before hitting the ground starting off pretty low.  Something like A, B, A, Hover, A, B, A, B, A land.  I have no idea if this is useful.  Utility is questionable because B laser goes at a downward angle.  That said hover, as far as I'm aware, isn't really useful so if it serves a purpose here then w00t.  I guess.

[Celerity]

That's good to know though now I'm wondering why you'd ever try to anti-air someone with the Flash Kick A if Flash Kick B has sufficient invulnerability to anti-air, deals more damage and IMO leaves you with a better setup (charge air projectile).

 

Yeah, I don't think there is any reason to use it. Less total frames, meaning in theory it's harder to punish, but I can't think of a situation offhand where that would make a difference. Even Orie's Evasion can bait and punish [2]8A no problem, and I'm sure almost every character can punished a whiffed [2]8A from fullscreen.

[Nobus3r1]

Yeah, I don't think there is any reason to use it. Less total frames, meaning in theory it's harder to punish, but I can't think of a situation offhand where that would make a difference. Even Orie's Evasion can bait and punish [2]8A no problem, and I'm sure almost every character can punished a whiffed [2]8A from fullscreen.

That's so weird.  Like according to the frame date chart you posted A version is -23 on block while B version is -34 on block.  Which is the difference between getting fucked up and getting fucked up.  That said this is one instance where her passive ability can make it difficult to figure out.  Like in other games when your reversal gets stuffed you (usually) get counter hit.  Here though nothing.  Which leaves me wondering if I screwed up the input or if the move ran out of invincibility whenever I fail to anti-air.

[Complexity]

A flash kick can hit slightly above your head as B version moves you forward and that's why you use A version sometimes.

[Complexity]

A flash kick can hit slightly above your head as B version moves you forward and that's why you use A version sometimes.

[choysauce]

Also I think the A flashkick would be useful vs someone like Hilda, where you need to stay closer. The opponent does get the option to air tech, but you can react and stay on top of them. 

 

Whereas B flashkick give you a set up to start a zoning game, which I find difficult so far vs Hilda. 

[Speakeasy]

Do we know what Vatista's palettes are referencing?

[Master Chibi]

I zone in every match up until I find I can't zone them, then I just pick away at things until it all clicks.

 

I mean she's loli guile, zoning is most definitely not a distraction with her, it's the main attraction lol

[Ryd']

To me, her strongest point in the match ups I've played seems to be her crystal pressure.  Zoning is alright; she has some solid tools, but unless you're doing the stuff that was linked a bit ago, it's pretty manageable when compared to characters like Carmine, who can achieve almost airtight lockdown; or Hilda, who controls pretty much the entire screen.  Vatista can take shots at range, but unless the opponent is really bad at blocking lasers and orbs, you're going to want to get in, at which point she transitions to what feels like a somewhat patient, but relentless, offense.  She doesn't have a whole lot of mixup (no fast overheads, only one low, no command throw), but her flash kick is sufficiently threatening to make it dangerous to jump, and the crystals make it really scary for most characters to try to poke since trading with an explosion is rarely a good deal: they're huge, active for days, and usually result in losing a decent chunk of health, resetting back into more crystal pressure.

 

That's good to know though now I'm wondering why you'd ever try to anti-air someone with the Flash Kick A if Flash Kick B has sufficient invulnerability to anti-air, deals more damage and IMO leaves you with a better setup (charge air projectile).

 

Been a while since I've messed with the game, but if you have a crystal in play on the outer reaches of A-flash kick, the explosion should make it safe on block.  It also might be purely coincidental minute differences in my reaction time and situations, but A-flash also seems to be a bit better at catching opponents at certain aerial spacings that B might miss because of the added vertical/horizontal distance.

[Master Chibi]

lol if Carmine zones you he'll literally kill himself and Hilda loses to Vatista imo.

 

I mean technically Carmine is the better zoner but if that's all he's doing I'll win by actually doing nothing.

 

I think you guys are underplaying her zoning game alot. I mean ALOT.

[Ryd']

Like Vatista, Carmine isn't a dedicated zoning character; he only ever wants to zone long enough to get in and score a knockdown, which is almost the entire match for him given his options and damage.  Vatista is a little more flexible since her kit doesn't allow for her to be as aggressive as Carmine, but at the same time, the number of characters she can reasonably expect to keep out to any real extent isn't all that large.  Match videos tell it plainer than any argument could - Vatista's typical win doesn't come from her successfully keeping the opponent out; either she gets an opening to start her rushdown, or the opponent gets in.  Her zoning isn't strong enough to win off of unless your opponents are bad at blocking, and the average range in this game is too huge to expect to be able to win by keeping people out unless you're Hilda, and that's only because that's all she can really do.  Vatista's zoning capabilities are above average for the game, but not phenomenal.

 

I'll agree that the Hilda matchup is in Vatista's favor, but that's more to do with Hilda having no real answers to Vatista once she gets in (which is the same problem Hilda has in most matchups; zoning is difficult in this game due to range/mobility options).  Playing at range though - Hilda generally does it better, and is actually able to convert most of her ranged hits into damage.

[Keech]

I think move my main Eltnum(1mil RIP and some good places on tourneys) with Vatista.

Some good information:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qolzoCiFW0 -learning curse with Vatista

http://youtu.be/3_D-V-Xw68Y?t=3m38s -236c Merkava punish.

[Keech]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeMHZKgVCJo -12 minutes combos for Vatista!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JApqHUwsJE -very nice cmv

[SoWL]

I picked up Vatista mostly because I didn't put enough thought in my Merkava play (sounds like a recipe for success, right?), and it does feel that she needs a whole lot of thought at all times. Like, I feel bad whenever I realize that I'm not holding any buttons - and then I hold them too late to do what I wanted to do. I also hold recovery to tech, so when I do tech and release the button, I make a crystal and leave myself wide open. Still, I enjoy learning her ins and outs, the combos feel like a puzzle with multiple layers, hiding the charges in ways you don't realize right away while reading the transcripts. And then there's the fact that I'm a pad warrior, so I haven't even tried performing the crystal combos.

 

I'll try to end this rant with a concrete question: is it fine if I don't hold any buttons while going on the offensive with things like Assault or 5C? It feels like all combos are made in such a way that you don't have to hold anything until the hit-confirm. 

[choysauce]

All the combos I've seen don't require anyone to hold buttons before the first hit of the combo. It's impractical to assume someone will be holding the correct button the whole time until you get the confirm.

 

most likely you would be holding buttons to set up pressure or zoning in neutral. 

[choysauce]

I was watching some videos and saw one JP player that did this block string

 

2A~B~AAA > 2C > 2]B[

 

I'm pretty certain this is the input he used (no input display)

I've been messing around with the chain combo system and found if you do the 2A~B~A fast enough the 2B won't come out and you get another 2A.

this lets you hold the B for the 2C > 2]B[ stein release.

 

pretty strong imo because it's pretty easy to set up how much distance you want to set out the stein and can mix it up with some other type of pressure since you're masking it with the 2AAA

 

*edit*

 

Did a bit more research,

it seems that if you plink A~B within 3 frames the next chain won't come out, 

4 frames or later the B will come out after the A

Most likely to do with the start up of the 2A, the first 3 frames are not actually hitting the opponent so inputting the next B won't activate the chain.

 

also this button masking concept makes me realize why 2B and 5B can't chain until the 2nd hit