[UNIEL] Yuzuriha

[Rhiya]

I've seen in videos and tonight during my session that cancelling into her 236B off a blocked C move is a pretty decent frametrap, gets them to respect it most of the time.

 

I don't recommend this because it'll end your pressure unless it hits, or at the least, put you in a really awkward position where you don't have many options

I just tested, and much like melty, you can delay your chains to create frametraps in every gatling you do

 

EDIT: Also, because your normals are so big, you can estimate the pushback you'll get, and outspace their 2A, then just ch it -- not a frametrap, but will still make them respect lol

 

also, 2a into 2c/5c seems to always frametrap

 

this isn't accounting for shield, mind, though

[lindseyboi]

what version is on psn? i feel sometimes im trying things that dont work because of the version im watching isnt the version im playing.

[nadakaineko]

I'm still getting the hang of the character, but going into stance from a string doesn't necessarily seem like a bad thing since stance is pretty strong to be in, but obviously, you don't wanna be right in the opponent's face. You also don't wanna to be using her command normals (notable 4B/4C) in strings as you cannot re-beat them, so it effectively ends your pressure. You can go into battou from them, however, which can sorta be a saving throw for those, but again, it's trying to salvage a bad situation you shouldn't really be in in the first place.

 

That's sorta how I'm feeling about it -- not sure what you guys think.

 

In terms of her combos, I've some of her combos need to have little delays in there. Some combos that rely on 236A~C need to have a slight delay between 236A and pushing C and then you need to go into 214B right away or you won't get the height required to 66C the opponent to end the combo. Sorta quirky, but not too bad once you know about it.

[Rhiya]

I'm still getting the hang of the character, but going into stance from a string doesn't necessarily seem like a bad thing since stance is pretty strong to be in, but obviously, you don't wanna be right in the opponent's face. You also don't wanna to be using her command normals (notable 4B/4C) in strings as you cannot re-beat them, so it effectively ends your pressure. You can go into battou from them, however, which can sorta be a saving throw for those, but again, it's trying to salvage a bad situation you shouldn't really be in in the first place.

 

The main thing about about using battou in pressure is that it makes it impossible to rebeat to reset your pressure (same as 4B/4C, really), and you lose the option to assault, throw, hit high, etc. Once you're in stance, your options become a lot more limited, and, therefore, easier to guess. At best, you could go into it hoping to CH with battou after conditioning them you'd reset there, hit 22 hoping to bait something, etc.

 

It's a game of implications, and stance reduces your implications. That's not to say you should never use it, but it's going to screw you if you don't use it judiciously.

 

Something from stance (maybe Yae Ichirin?) might be plus frames, though, so gonna have to wait for the frame data to know what's up for sure -- but until then, I'd say you're better off playing it safe. I don't expect us to get lucky like that.

[nadakaineko]

Yeah, I feel more or less the same way. The command normals that trigger stance aren't that bad though (6A/6B/6C) and they don't seem to be terrible to throw in at around a character length or more away. They also seem to have quite a bit of blockstun, which is nice. I do see them getting some use in strings in match videos, but again, I'm not 100% sure the utility behind them. The one upside is that 6C is a great way since you get to start a stance chain from C and not trigger an EX.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Can anyone confirm what notations are off a throw, I've seen in most match videos:

 

 

It goes like:

 

Throw>4C>2C>236A>421C>236B~D(?)>214B>DC>421B for the midscreen version.

 

 

And the corner variation doesn't seem that different.

[nadakaineko]

I have this for corner throw:

 

4C 2C 236A 236B 421A D Cancel 66C j.236A j.236B j.214A D Cancel (66C 421C D Cancel) or (66B 41236D)

[BlackYakuzu94]

Does anyone have any visual demonstration of slide holding in question, I've probably seen it in a match or two without realizing but it's nice to have a clear example and I do better with visual evidence in addition to written.

[Rhiya]

Do you mean someone using it in a match (the game footage), or someone performing  it on their stick + game footage?

[BlackYakuzu94]

That will do, I did manage to find it in the tutorial on the first page tho.

[kazukifafner]

The corner throw combo I typically used is:

 

A+D > 4C > 2C > 236B > 214A(D) > 66C > j236A > jC > j214B(D) > 66C > j421C(D)

 

Still figuring out better versions of that combo in training mode, but I'm not comfortable enough to use them online yet.

[Blue Crimson]

Can anyone confirm what notations are off a throw, I've seen in most match videos:

It goes like:

Throw>4C>2C>236A>421C>236B~D(?)>214B>DC>421B for the midscreen version.

And the corner variation doesn't seem that different.

I think the combo you're referring to is Throw>4C>2C>236B(Slide hold A) >421C>236B>214B+D>DC>421C~D(?)

(Also, on the front page, it says her j2B is an axe kick, but it's actually a strike with her sword.)

[Rhiya]

Also, about this combo

 

5. 236B~D 236B 214B+D 2C 4C j.B j.2C j.C DB 236ABA 214C+D - 4027

 

I can't get it to work consistenly, the 214B+D doesn't hit midscreen and if I try to do the 2nd batou, it doesn't combo. Any tips?

 

Oh, let me go back and answer this.

 

You need to delay the 214B~D until after a little after the second wallslam. The 236B 236B is a link, but, much like the 214B, you want it to hit a bit after the wallslam.

 

Also, I input it the beginning of that combo like this:

 

236B(~D) 236B~[A] 214B~D 2C...

 

It does the same thing, and works fine at midrange. Cancelling out of the first stance with D (as opposed to simply not holding the input) isn't necessary at every range to get it combo, anyways -- you can actually link the second 236B if you simply input 236B without holding B, wait for a bit after the wallslam, and input 236B again. The slide hold after the second 236B should also be necessary to do 236B 214B, anyways, since you can't use the d cancel trick to get out a move with the button you last used, iirc (though it might just be be that exact move with that exact input, need to double check).

Anyways, hope that helps a little.

 

EDIT: I have literally no idea why the first 236B is notated 236B~D

 

just doing 236B (no hold) works fine even if you're in their face or at max range

 

SECOND EDIT: Honestly, can we just standardize this notation and make it make sense? The stuff in the JP video is either confusing or misleading half the time (214B+D for Yae Ichirin D cancel, when it looks like you should input 214B+D to use the D stance cancel trick to be getting out Yae Ichirin without a mark; IC j.2C, when literally no one uses that notation, and anyone on DL would write either BE j.2C or j.2[C]; unclear timing and notation of slide holds; almost no one understanding that DC is dashing C and not something like dash cancel; etc.)

[Blue Crimson]

Probably because in neutral you'll be doing 236B~D if you're not planning to stay in stance. It's not a bad habit to practice. The video(s) it was demonstrated in focused on lecturing about how her system works and the importance of learning it.

[Rhiya]

Yeah, but there's also benefit to using a slide hold in that situation to keep another B battou up, etc.

 

Also, I just checked -- that's not notated there in the video. Iunno where that 236B~D got introduced, but it shouldn't be there.

[OutlawVinegar]

I don't play this character (yet) but for those of you discussing how she ought to be played and what works, watch this Yuzu player in game a-cho's most recent UNIB upload; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2Qr9Qkfd4E (Rough times they play are from about 7:30-55:00 and then again from 1:20-video end)

 

I don't follow top-level players so it's very possible this is someone well-known and I'm clueless, but this player gets a lot of mileage out of 4C>stance and just generally floating around using the stance to make opponents feel pinned down. Maybe there are some staples of Yuzu mixup you can all get from this and work into your own gameplans.

[Rhiya]

I'll be honest

 

you're seeing the flash, and not the work that goes into making the flashy stuff hit

 

just within the first match, if you count the amount of times he conditions the hilda to expect normal rebeats, it's way more of his strings %wise than any fancy battou/stance pressure

 

the first sion is bad, so he's basically doing w/e he wants. you'll notice he plays a lot less wild against the second sion -- more like he does against the hilda

 

the carmine is sort of an inbetween, partially fueled by carmine's lack of a reversal

 

then it's the first sion again? he's just doing really over the top stuff because the sion is giving him so much respect

 

the hilda bodies him, then when he goes to run it back, you'll notice he only really uses battou/6abc in strings if it's a question of spacing -- I find the uses of stance to reset to neutral more notable tbh

 

then more bad sion (you'll note he actually gets punished for some of the crazy stuff he tries this time, but wins anyways because he's way better)

 

the linne is really respectful of battou from fullscreen, so he takes advantage and basically dares her to hit a button half the match when she could really screw him over if she committed to something I think

 

getting kinda tired, so hard to analyze the merkava and second linne match

basically, he's playing to the player really well and responding to their level of respect, which causes his pressure to sometimes be really flashy and crazy even though that's not normally the best idea (things like jumping in stance and doing falling j.2[C] in your blockstring lol), and using battou if there's nothing else he can use at that range or they respect it a lot

 

(random aside: this vid is making me wonder if d cancelled yae ichirin might actually be plus)

[JettyLovefield]

Only got like 3 wins with Yuzu on ranked with 10\11 losses. 

I get too frustrated with her A\B normal ranges and my wins are simple on spacing and godluck with the People's Elbow.

 

But question, can her 236A\B\C beat Gordeau's infamous Gream Reapah or simple trade? And what about Waldstein? I have serious issues on dealing with that beast as Yuzu.

[kazukifafner]

Don't worry about losing with Yuzu at first. It's going to happen. Especially since this is a new game in general.

 

Battou only beats Grim Reaper if you out space it.

[OutlawVinegar]

I'll be honest

 

you're seeing the flash, and not the work that goes into making the flashy stuff hit

 

just within the first match, if you count the amount of times he conditions the hilda to expect normal rebeats, it's way more of his strings %wise than any fancy battou/stance pressure

 

the hilda bodies him, then when he goes to run it back, you'll notice he only really uses battou/6abc in strings if it's a question of spacing -- I find the uses of stance to reset to neutral more notable tbh

 

I'll be honest

 

You're being presumptuous about why I posted the video.

 

I directed the video here more than anything else as a reply of sorts of nadakai's post (http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/8882-uniel-yuzuriha/page-3#entry827392) on using stance during strings and whether it's putting yourself in a compromising situation. As best I can see, yes you lose your rebeats but instead exchange them for a free out and potential frame traps, though of course whether it's a good or safeish idea is very matchup-dependent.

[nadakaineko]

Yeah, I'll further corroborate that - don't get discouraged by losing with Yuzu in the beginning. She's not a beginner character and being able to open people up well with her means you understand and can use all of her tools appropriately. It's gonna suck for awhile and it is frustrating, but once you learn her pressure and really integrate stance into your play, I'm positive you'll see results.

[kazukifafner]

 

I'll be honest

 

You're being presumptuous about why I posted the video.

 

I directed the video here more than anything else as a reply of sorts of nadakai's post (http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/8882-uniel-yuzuriha/page-3#entry827392) on using stance during strings and whether it's putting yourself in a compromising situation. As best I can see, yes you lose your rebeats but instead exchange them for a free out and potential frame traps, though of course whether it's a good or safeish idea is very matchup-dependent.

 

 

Well, you're going to go back and forth between types of pressure regardless.

 

Yuzu is all about making your opponent feel comfortable with what you're doing, then whipping out something completely different. You can't only stay back and slash away (well, unless you have solid life advantage, I suppose, lol). Her pressure becomes more effective when your opponent realizes that you could potentially be doing something else that's just as worrying.

 

For example, I've kept people back with slashes: Backing off then using battou, moving forward a little and using battou, etc.; and then literally dashed all the way up to them and threw them. Now, I'm not saying you'll always be able to do super obvious things like that (especially the higher level you get), but that's the type of thing you'll be doing to open opponents up.

 

As strong and important as her zoning game is, a solid up-close pressure game is invaluable to a Yuzuriha player, as it just makes your zoning game all the more frightening (and vice versa).

 

EDIT: And yeah, it's matchup dependent too. Player dependent as well. If the guy you're fighting keeps getting caught in your battou game; then by all means, keep plugging away at him. If they're good at handling long distance zoning, but fall apart whenever you try to rush them down, then focus on that.

[JettyLovefield]

I guess i'll endure more. 

 

I should also lab more with her now that i think of, thanks

[BlackYakuzu94]

I'm finding it easy to space with her in the matches I've been playing, but don't know any decent combos off the confirms I'm getting aside from 5A/2A.

 

 

Anyone got a decent 5C AA combo route, or her stance confirms?

[Rhiya]

I'll be honest

 

You're being presumptuous about why I posted the video.

 

I directed the video here more than anything else as a reply of sorts of nadakai's post (http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/8882-uniel-yuzuriha/page-3#entry827392) on using stance during strings and whether it's putting yourself in a compromising situation. As best I can see, yes you lose your rebeats but instead exchange them for a free out and potential frame traps, though of course whether it's a good or safeish idea is very matchup-dependent.

 

I was involved in that conversation, which is the main reason I replied.

Couple of quick things:

A) You don't gain access to frametraps from stance. You can frametrap during basic gatling/rebeat pressure no problem, and also use spacing to bait mash, because Yuzu's normals are basically guaranteed to beat a 2A clean when spaced correctly. You gain -different- frametraps, which are not safer by any means. Stance frametraps will still have uses (and net good damage!), but your wording implies you don't get any without stance, which is just false.

B) Whether it's a good or safe idea, I'd argue, is more player dependent than matchup dependent, though matchup does indeed influence the dynamic. Some people will let you run wild, like that Sion, while others will make you play much safer, like either Hilda. Retreating to neutral is almost always an overall loss when you're pressuring, because you're intentionally choosing to give up advantage; using stance in pressure will inevitably involve calculating what the risk of needing to return to neutral is, and how much it'll cost you. (That's the main reason I agree with you on the influence of matchup in this decision, because how much advantage you lose is indeed matchup dependent -- it's a smaller loss if your neutral is better than theirs. I think most stance shenanigans will probably really punishable if read, but I'd need to check.)

 

Side note: I'm also curious just how safe/practical teleporting out like that is if they get a read on it, since I imagine they could just run up to you. It's gonna work for sure if they don't expect it, but I wonder if it's punishable if they do. I guess I should check that + Yae Ichirin on block sometime today.

 

Well, you're going to go back and forth between types of pressure regardless.

 

Yuzu is all about making your opponent feel comfortable with what you're doing, then whipping out something completely different. You can't only stay back and slash away (well, unless you have solid life advantage, I suppose, lol). Her pressure becomes more effective when your opponent realizes that you could potentially be doing something else that's just as worrying.

 

For example, I've kept people back with slashes: Backing off then using battou, moving forward a little and using battou, etc.; and then literally dashed all the way up to them and threw them. Now, I'm not saying you'll always be able to do super obvious things like that (especially the higher level you get), but that's the type of thing you'll be doing to open opponents up.

 

As strong and important as her zoning game is, a solid up-close pressure game is invaluable to a Yuzuriha player, as it just makes your zoning game all the more frightening (and vice versa).

 

EDIT: And yeah, it's matchup dependent too. Player dependent as well. If the guy you're fighting keeps getting caught in your battou game; then by all means, keep plugging away at him. If they're good at handling long distance zoning, but fall apart whenever you try to rush them down, then focus on that.

 

 

You're absolutely right, though this is just how pressure in general works -- you've gotta cater to your opponent's reactions to your pressure, and attempt to condition and confuse them the best you can within the confines of what they'll let you do and what you can -get- them to let you do.

 

Also, fullscreen battou into run up throw is legit as hell if they respect you that much. Getting a read that hard is always satisfying.