[P4AU] Rise Kujikawa Gameplay Discussion

[Vesperion]

Does anyone have something for Shadow Rise's challenge 30 yet?

[Sadeyo]

Does anyone know how to play Shadow Rise? Very fun and all the shindigs to go along with it but man is the struggle real to get any form of victory. I actually think I would've accumulated more wins as normal Rise because I lack that Shadow technology. I should be able to do most of normal Rise combos as a shadow character so I'll look at the combo videos again and browse through the combo section this weekend.

[TD]

The plan should be simple right now. Gain 100 meter, setup some form of unblockable or other form of outrageous mixup.

More or less you have to learn the shadow mechanics. Then use the extremely one dimensional tactic to deal damage. Not win perse, and not even guarantee full damage. But waste all your meter for a chance at 5k. When some characters can get a little less than that meterless.

Hope I'm driving the point home. Shadow rise is very likely worse than the original. Worse. Than rise. So that makes her the worst character in the game!

(At least for now, and I'm only saying that on the very off chance she gets and IOH that leads into 5k somewhere down the line)

[furix]

Does anyone know how to play Shadow Rise? Very fun and all the shindigs to go along with it but man is the struggle real to get any form of victory. I actually think I would've accumulated more wins as normal Rise because I lack that Shadow technology. I should be able to do most of normal Rise combos as a shadow character so I'll look at the combo videos again and browse through the combo section this weekend.

 

Try to set up to her UB pretty much. But, you'll be saving up your meter most of the match just so you can land it, but landing it does feel very satisfying. It's been posted in here somewhere. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TQbJ-9EXp4 here's a video where I do it somewhere in the second round, I messed it up in round one lol.

[Celerity]

The main problem is that Rise doesn't get much damage from stray hits in neutral; you really need to open your opponent up. So even if you land some awesome 6K unblockable, all that will happen is you'll activate the opponent's awakening and be left with no meter and no burst, and you'll still need to open them up twice more to win.

 

On top of that, Rise gets much more damage than average from spending meter in combos, she needs meter to convert properly on a lot of her confirms, and she has one of the best supers in the entire game. The tradeoff for shadow rampage is just not worth it.

[Justice7541]

The plan should be simple right now. Gain 100 meter, setup some form of unblockable or other form of outrageous mixup.

More or less you have to learn the shadow mechanics. Then use the extremely one dimensional tactic to deal damage. Not win perse, and not even guarantee full damage. But waste all your meter for a chance at 5k. When some characters can get a little less than that meterless.

Hope I'm driving the point home. Shadow rise is very likely worse than the original. Worse. Than rise. So that makes her the worst character in the game!

(At least for now, and I'm only saying that on the very off chance she gets and IOH that leads into 5k somewhere down the line)

Honestly if you hate the character so much drop her and pick up Yu, the "whining about stupid shit" meme is getting really old.

In all seriousness I think Shadow Rise is pretty good, Shadow characters build meter outrageously fast and while Rise doesn't deal that much with Shadow Rampage, all the excess meter she builds constantly as Shadow (and starts with, for second round) means the opponent has to manage his meter really carefully since the instant you touch him (even on block) with more than 75 meter and he doesn't have burst or CA, he's pretty much guaranteed to eat at least 3.8k. On top of that the increased meter build means she can expend meter much more liberally during combos and still be at a meter advantage for said unblocks.

Since Rise has really good normals and a really strong oki/momentum game on top of that it's pretty easy for Shadow Rise to just run pressure nonstop since the opponent is forced to sit on all his meter to CA/counter-roll out of DDR setups.

[TD]

Honestly if you hate the character so much drop her and pick up Yu, the "whining about stupid shit" meme is getting really old.

In all seriousness I think Shadow Rise is pretty good, Shadow characters build meter outrageously fast and while Rise doesn't deal that much with Shadow Rampage, all the excess meter she builds constantly as Shadow (and starts with, for second round) means the opponent has to manage his meter really carefully since the instant you touch him (even on block) with more than 75 meter and he doesn't have burst or CA, he's pretty much guaranteed to eat at least 3.8k. On top of that the increased meter build means she can expend meter much more liberally during combos and still be at a meter advantage for said unblocks.

Since Rise has really good normals and a really strong oki/momentum game on top of that it's pretty easy for Shadow Rise to just run pressure nonstop since the opponent is forced to sit on all his meter to CA/counter-roll out of DDR setups.

You're not serious right.

Besides the fact that I disagree with some of the things you have said in this post, I believe the attack was not necessary. But I do not have the time to deal with you right now. So instead, I'll just agree to disagree.

[LitchiFayeBling]

rise does not have "really good normals" in this game lol

 

the unblockable setups are i think her only chance

shadow rise might be better just because she keeps meter thru rounds

 

normal rise - awakening meter, burst

 

shadow rise - faster meter build, keep meter thru rounds, more airtight setup with 100 meter

 

how good can we get the non-rampage setup?

 

might have to start optimizing combos for meter gain

[DeathArcana]

Question: How much does Rise rely on her Music Note Mines? are they good for Oki?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[TD]

Not too useful. They look pretty I guess... They can be disrespected easily. They are at their best when being blocked, I think. You can sort of zone with them in neutral using max range 5b 236a as pseudo pokes I suppose, and on oki if they are respected, can give a semi-free arrow rain but none of this is exactly foolproof or strong and is mostly gimmicky. They don't offer much in the form of combo extension or even damage outside of a select few scenarios, like the one just mentioned.

236b itself, not the notes, is good for oki because it meaties and is safe on block, hit, and I don't think the foe can escape without blocking. It is important to mix this stuff up, I mentioned why in an earlier post. Yeah notes themselves though are extremely underwhelming. I don't flipping understand how these things don't launch the foe on hit. That would make them 2x more dangerous than they are now.

[LitchiFayeBling]

she just doesn't have good ways to detonate them from afar

 

-

 

some more ideas for shadow rise -

pop rampage neutrally, activate satellite, chase them down into unblockable setup

on hit, go into some combo that leads into meaty something (2c?) into unblockable setup. could be able to squeeze out combo damage (~2500 probably?) + unblockable damage (~3800). big problem of course is managing their burst/meter. ive seen some examples of this already, wanna see if that itself can be optimized

[Justice7541]

There isn't really a ton of incentive to waste Rampage in neutral IMO since it has the same duration if you cancel into it, unless you feel like you really need the Orbiters to get in with. It certainly may be possible to do a low-cost Rampage cancel combo into SB Arrow Rain midair tech trap > SB unblockable, which would be about 2.5k + 4.8k since you can't CA in air block. The nice thing about Rise Shadow Rampage is that even if you burst her Shadow Rampage combo, she stays in Rampage so all she needs is to touch you again and that's another free unblockable setup.

As for notes, meaty 236B note setup is pretty strong, as stated before it's safe on hit and block and goes airtight into blockstrings which in turn can be used to detonate the notes to enforce a jump cancel mixup. I do meaty 236b > 5aa 2b (trggers notes) JC falling j.B a lot, the notes prevent them from do a 2B AA and you can bait DPs if they're being too obvious about it.

Doing notes without the 236B hit/block is pretty bad obviously but that's why 236B has a hitbox I guess.

[Justice7541]

Some Rise tech that isn't DDR gimmicks:

 

After meaty note oki:

- Dash 5AA jump forward j.B (triggers notes) - crossup mixup.  If you press j.B immediately the notes will hit same-side, if you delay it just a couple of frames you will pass over the opponent and hit crossup.  Works even if the opponent is crouching because the detonation of the higher note triggers the lower one.  Either way you can land and 5A for an easy followup.

- Dash 5AA 5B 2C IAD > airdash mixup (j.B j.A double overhead, j.B 2A high/low, j.B j.A land j.B(1) j.C OMC fuzzy triple overhead) - notes makes 2C set airtight so you have time to jump and go into airdash mixup.

- Dash 5AA 2B(1) 22A+B 5AA (lightning comes down) 214C > 236A > dash 5A > any mixup obscured by Tetrakarn

 

Note oki is basically sweep 5D tier mixups lol.

[Complexity]

New cheese for normal RIse:

 

xx 2ab 236ab 2b(1) 22a j.c j.2d land 214a (or whatever leads into 214a)

 

After opponent techs, do 2b(1) which will trigger the other note that wasn't destroyed.

 

2b(1) 22ab (covered by the destroyed note) which sets them up for the unblockable. You can dash up 5aa wait for the 5aa to recover and still have time to input rhythm game super with it being a perfect blockstring. Can be DP-ed out of before the 5aa.

 

Also if your opponent doesn't block any of the moves after teching the blockstring will combo into itself.

[LitchiFayeBling]

couldn't get sweep -> meaty 236b -> dash 5aa 2b to detonate notes in matches

 

gonna have to try shadow rise

[Loli Bacon]

couldn't get sweep -> meaty 236b -> dash 5aa 2b to detonate notes in matches

 

gonna have to try shadow rise

 

That setup only works off crouch confirm > 5C > 214B > 5AA > sweep > 236B, because they're closer. Any normal ender into 236B meaty can probably be slightly altered so it works. I'll test a little bit..

[furix]

236B 5AA5B (detonate) 2C is so good lol, I just had some Yu rage quit on me tonight LOL because of it. Though, he was also really bad at the neutral game getting out ranged and beat out by nearly everything i did, so that probably added to that. It's just so hilarious seeing someone rage quit to Rise though... I hope the poor dude didn't quit the game completely though.

[TD]

He probably won't quite but will and should be ashamed for awhile. That sort of loss builds character. Or collapses it. Depends in the person.

[Loli Bacon]

I'm thinking Shadow Rise is stronger than Rise. Time to jump ship~

[Sadeyo]

I'm thinking Shadow Rise is stronger than Rise. Time to jump ship~

In theory Shadow Rise should be slightly stronger ignoring the damage debuffs, burst and no Instant Kill. If S.Rise is able to do 100% everything normal Rise is able to do with the exception of that berserk burst (which is icing on the cake) she could be formidable all on her own. I'm going to go with the idea that Shadow>Normal but ignore the vague explanation if you want to.

 

Is anyone in the same shoes as me that your win-loss ratio is pretty poor because all the work you need to put into Rise for results? I'll be doing some sick set-ups and like a hair from winning but I have everyone run it back stealing that glory as if it was nothing. I can name a few off the top of my head such as Mitsuru, Aigis, Yu, Sho, Teddie, Ken, and Yosuke. If they're the gods of the game then fuck me, most of these matches feel very uphill but I'm sure it will pay off later down the road.

[TD]

All of them are strong. For most of these characters, still strong from the last game. It's no surprise you are having trouble with this lot.

[furix]

The fact that a lot of the players you are losing to probably have been using their characters since P4A and you are starting off with a new main could also amount to your losses. Specially a character that is still being heavily explored.

[Setsuna]

I started trying to optimize my confirms off 22AB acid rain notes. I get them so often I figured I needed to start capitalizing off it. Also whats everyones ideal Fatal Counter route from 214B punish ?

[Justice7541]

In theory Shadow Rise should be slightly stronger ignoring the damage debuffs, burst and no Instant Kill. If S.Rise is able to do 100% everything normal Rise is able to do with the exception of that berserk burst (which is icing on the cake) she could be formidable all on her own. I'm going to go with the idea that Shadow>Normal but ignore the vague explanation if you want to.

Is anyone in the same shoes as me that your win-loss ratio is pretty poor because all the work you need to put into Rise for results? I'll be doing some sick set-ups and like a hair from winning but I have everyone run it back stealing that glory as if it was nothing. I can name a few off the top of my head such as Mitsuru, Aigis, Yu, Sho, Teddie, Ken, and Yosuke. If they're the gods of the game then fuck me, most of these matches feel very uphill but I'm sure it will pay off later down the road.

I think it's a matchup thing. I wouldn't really want to play Shadow Rise vs. someone like Shadow Chie who can almost 100% me if I don't have a burst, and who will conversely always be sitting on meter to CA out of my unblockables. On the other hand someone like Sho or Minazuki who just runs easily IB'd pressure for days would be relatively free to Shadow unblocks since you'd basically be sitting on enough meter to turn every stray blocked hit into an unblockable.

New cheese for normal RIse:

xx 2ab 236ab 2b(1) 22a j.c j.2d land 214a (or whatever leads into 214a)

After opponent techs, do 2b(1) which will trigger the other note that wasn't destroyed.

2b(1) 22ab (covered by the destroyed note) which sets them up for the unblockable. You can dash up 5aa wait for the 5aa to recover and still have time to input rhythm game super with it being a perfect blockstring. Can be DP-ed out of before the 5aa.

Also if your opponent doesn't block any of the moves after teching the blockstring will combo into itself.

Is that a midair tech trap? Can they forward tech out of it? I was looking into midair tech trap resets into unblockable but I couldn't figure out a way to catch both forward and neutral tech at a height where DDR would actually hit.

[Complexity]

No it's just a normal hard kd into oki. 214a knocks the guy down.