[CS2] Ragna General Discussion

[Prototype909]

On the topic of hitconfirming, things like 2B -> 5C pickups and 5B -> 6A (5D -> Dash or 5D 1 hit -> GH) combos are much better to be using on a regular basis than 5B -> 3C -> 5D combos. A lot of people seem to get locked into a habit of 5D = more damage = only go for this, and then when they got blocked they throw in the 5D anyways...

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

5D(1) -> DC was -20 in CT, dunno if it's the same in CS. I don't remember it being so hard in CT, so they may have made the cancel window later, which would make it even worse in terms of recovery. Yeah, it can work if your opponent is too distracted, but generally, saavy players will try to IB the first hit of 5D most of the time, seeing as there's already a 12-frame gap between the first and second hit of the move. And yeah, anybody who has a reversal move that they were gonna do anyway is gonna fuck you over.

[advancedNoob]

Sure, gimmicks like that work online because 80% of people on ranked are stupid

most ranked players are super scrub level. I beat the shit out of some lvl70 when I was only 30 and BBCS is my first fg that I want to be mad good at, so my knowledge is lacking atm. Now in player matches, that's where you might find some beasty opponents. My personal favorites are Zidane and SHADOWREDzero, these guys are REALLY good. You can tell that their victories are well deserved. I'm sure there are more in other regions, too.

Cool trick that I came up with a few days ago: after you perform a 22C ender combo, if you have 50 heat (which you do 99% of the time) sjDash forward, as soon as you are over the opponents head do ID (D version), cancel it -> GH -> standard follow up. This cross up nets a shit ton of damage, added damage can be 7K+, easily.

This cross up is nothing new, but have yet to see anyone implement it in this manner.

Edited December 2, 2010 by advancedNoob

[StarryShade]

I'm not sure that's a crossup...but if it misses....your screwed

[Nakkiel]

It's a cross-up and actually I've seen it used a fair amount of times, but it's always been with C Divider.

Doing it after 22C is risky though because if the opponent doesn't tech out of stagger immediately then you don't get anything off of it.

[advancedNoob]

It's a cross up and you are not screwed on block, failed execution is another story though.

sG, I tend to teach my opponents to tech before I use that trick.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

You can do it with either version of ID. D version grants much better damage since the P1 on it is 100%, compared to C's 70%.

[StarryShade]

your screwed if no RC...free punish

[Nakkiel]

your screwed if no RC...free punish

You're never supposed to do it without meter. So that's a non-factor.

sG, I tend to teach my opponents to tech before I use that trick.

Good job on not being a scrub! Seriously.

[WolfCrimson]

This has been true since CT. I'd always get my shit rocked after trying to DC 5D's 1st hit, I try hard not to do it UNLESS, my opponent is too locked down on blocking, doesn't have 50%, or doesn't have a reversal.

CS =/= CT. The cancel window is really late, almost when Ragna's downward swing is about to hit. Really, try it out in Training, if you ever go there.

If you're feeling extra risky then go for it,All power to you if that actually helps. but I dare you to do that against a Hazama with 50%-100%, or Tager with 50%. If they IB 5D(1) which most people I face do, your ass is grass.

That is true for any non-airtight blockstring. It's not exclusive to 5D(1) DC.

Or an opponent that doesn't have a button. You can smash your face against the controller and counter it. Literally, you'll have enough time for you face to impact the stick, and for the move to come out.

It might be good once in a while to catch somebody sleeping, but you can't rely on the opponent falling asleep, or being distracted with futurama to land hits. Focus on real mixup over bad gimmicks.

Ok then, go smash your face against the controller to counter it. I'll just not dash cancel and get a free CH. I don't think you understand what I'm talking about, but then again, that might be my fault for not explaining properly. I'm gonna address that in my reply to Titanium, stay tuned.

5D(1) -> DC was -20 in CT, dunno if it's the same in CS. I don't remember it being so hard in CT, so they may have made the cancel window later, which would make it even worse in terms of recovery. Yeah, it can work if your opponent is too distracted, but generally, saavy players will try to IB the first hit of 5D most of the time, seeing as there's already a 12-frame gap between the first and second hit of the move. And yeah, anybody who has a reversal move that they were gonna do anyway is gonna fuck you over.

You forgot to factor in first active frame hit, and blockstun. If it hits in the first active frame, it's 12+4 = 16 frame gap. According to frame data, 5D is a level 4 move, so blockstun is 18 frames. Factoring in IB, it's 18-5 = 13. So the opponent has 16-13 = 3 frames to do something in case you don't dash cancel. Frame data says a dash cancel is 22 frames of recovery* (*dunno what that means, but I'm guessing it means it lasts 22 frames), which is bound to be more because of the delay in dash cancel (I'd say around 13-14 frames after the first active frame hit). The thing is, that the dash cancel has no voice sound cue (only that dash sound, which is mostly masked by Ragna's 5D shout), and when done, even some of the "darkness" effects come out. So the opponent has to rely on only visual cues of Ragna running AFTER you dash canceled and do a reversal on reaction, because otherwise they'd be expecting the 2nd hit of the 5D, or something else, because there are other options after 5D(2). So factoring in average human reaction time (according to yahoo answers is 0.25s) which is ~15 frames, that'd mean they have 23-15 = 7 frames to do something, IF they were REALLY alert (not accounting when they actually see the visual cue). I'd imagine that if they were gonna do a DP anyway, they'd be too far away since the blockstring itself prior to the first hit of 5D would have pushed them back a bit, since no Ragna should intentionally start a blockstring with a 5D (just a guess, gonna have to get home and test it with every non-Jayoku DP in the game to verify this). And you can always cancel with C ID yourself if you see them IB or feel they're gonna DP (make sure you have 50 heat before doing so), and not dash cancel.

That's the math of it, but theory =/= practical, otherwise all overheads ever done by every player would've been blocked, or DPed, everywhere, and all throws would've been teched, and elite JP matches would always be a draw with timeout. Try it out yourselves (which most of you didn't seem to do), and tell me what you think.

So what I'm saying is that it's something to DO to mix-up your opponent once in a while (hit/throw mix-up). I've never said that it should be relied on SOLELY, just that it's something that you can incorporate into your game, to keep your opponent on their toes because you have one more option at your disposal, and they should account for that.

[FlyingVe]

Dude, the first part of my statement was a joke, you didn't read the second half of my post...

Also I have tried it, and you know what happened? I got jabbed, you know why, because when the opponent sees Ragna Dash cancel that is what you do, you jab him and hit him. GGJ is right, it's just a gimmick, and this has already been discussed before...

In regards to the ID cross-up, doesn't D.ID also have a bigger hitbox?(I could be wrong) That would make it easier to do.

[KayEff]

You could try 22C > dash 5A > IAD > ID crossup but too bad it only works on a few characters...(5A whiffs on characters, Jin works iirc)

[advancedNoob]

replace 5A with 2A, works on everyone.

[WolfCrimson]

Against whom/what did you try it out? CPU? Training dummy? Real person?

It's true that you can get jabbed out of it if the opponent is anticipating it, I admit that. The thing is Ragna has other options after 5D(1), even 5D(2), that the opponent has to account for, and can't just jab as he pleases, it has to be on reaction. And the ragna dash cancel, as I have been saying, is really hard to see.

[StarryShade]

5D 1 hit is gimmicky, end of story. Going into 5D on block is already really ghey.

[KayEff]

replace 5A with 2A, works on everyone.

2A isn't jump cancel-able. Therefore IADs won't work.

[Legend Of K1]

are there only certain circumstances in which you can finish a combo with 5D > 22C > whatever ?

the combo im trying right now is this:

5B, 5C, 5D, dc 6A, j.C, j.D, jc j.C, B Edge, 6DD, jc j.C, B Edge, 5D > whatever

can i tack on a 22C after my last 5D ?

i guess all in all, what im asking is: is there only certain situations you can do 5D > 22C ?

do i input the 22C after the first hit of 5D ? can i do it after the second hit ?

thanks <3

[FlyingVe]

Once a month this question gets asked...

22C picks the opponent up off the ground, so that had to have been knocked down earlier in the combo. Usually this mean that you have already hit them with 3C or 2D earlier in the combo. So you cannot do it in your example. Wether and what you can follow the 22C with depends on how long the combo was prior to that hit.

[Legend Of K1]

alrighty, thank you. sorry for asking a question that gets frequently asked, i know it can be annoying to the people who have been on these boards for a while (i get annoyed at certain questions on the SRK ssf4 forums sometimes =/ )

response much appreciated

[FlyingVe]

It's all good, it's something that isn't obvious to people who transition from other games. There are very few stupid questions, but there are plenty of stupid statements.

[advancedNoob]

3c counter hit doesnt allow 22c combos btw.

[-Ladon-]

3c counter hit doesnt allow 22c combos btw.

if you instantly cancel it doesn't

[WolfCrimson]

you gotta wait for them to touch the ground.

[Yggjrasil]

CS =/= CT. The cancel window is really late, almost when Ragna's downward swing is about to hit. Really, try it out in Training, if you ever go there.

wow you have like a serious case of selective reading, Even though CS=/=CT, its still a gimmick and it'll only work if your opponent isn't aware and if you can get hit out of it, especially jabbed, then its not worth it. This especially for Bang's case. btw, in training mode, I work on things that are actually useful.

GGJ is right, it's just a gimmick

5D 1 hit is gimmicky, end of story. Going into 5D on block is already really ghey.

Thank you. Now Lets move on shall we. No more of that nonsense.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Yggjrasil

[WolfCrimson]

^ I never said it wasn't a gimmick. And also, by your definition of what's "not worth it", you would be implying that overheads are "not worth it" either.

And I wasn't reading selectively, dude. You said that "This has been true since CT", and I replied "CS=/=CT" because in this case, it's different. 5D (1) DC was hella obvious in CT, and now, not so much in CS. You said that you would always get jabbed out of it, which I assume happened in CT, because now you're somebody famous (as far as PSN goes), even mentioned in the PSN strong foes thread, so you're probably someone who knows what to do and what not to do with Ragna, and hence have stopped using 5D (1) DC in CS, based on your experiences in CT. Since not even Ragna's frame data states that his 5D is dash cancel-able after the first hit between frames xx-xx, I thought no one ever thought about it being viable or anything in CS. So it's not like you didn't say enough, or I read selectively, it's just that I went Detective Conan on your post.

ENDORSED BY KAQN

Edited December 4, 2010 by WolfCrimson