Zouf Posted October 10, 2014 Posted October 10, 2014 Spinoza is only posting combos about 623C > 5C juggle, but unless they changed 623C (and they probably did), this link is freaking hard to do. Hope he's giving feasible combos and not impossible ones.
chzchan Posted October 10, 2014 Posted October 10, 2014 Just from the videos of 623C being used, it knocks the opponent much lower and slightly closer to you. You probably don't even need to dash forward in order to catch them with 5C anymore. The hardest and most unreliable part of this combo right now in 1.1 is hitting the 2C after the 5A/C, especially after 5C and this is heavily affected by the opponents' falling air hitbox. This will be much easier now that they will be closer to the ground. Also did some more calculations. So the new charge rates maybe will go from 250 (7f - 21f) and 200 (22f - etc.) to 300 and 240 respectively if the increased charge rate is exactly 120% the speed of the current 1.1 charge rate. Also, regular charge cancel rate will be 750 for charge cancellable normals and 1500 for charge cancellable specials. This also means that the we will be able to stop charging at where, in 1.1, we would usually have gained 0.83 charges before heading after our opponent after preforming a knockdown after a combo and have 1 charge stocked after ending the combo.
Airk Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 I ran some numbers on a couple of combos, and unless they nerfed the damage on our normals, they didn't change Tsubaki's combo rate.
chzchan Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 Wait, nerfed? They probably changed the P2 values of individual moves. Based on what I read Errol say, I think they improved raw special P1 and P2 values, but nerfed or left the same the P2 values of the followups. Those could heavily influence damage. He may have been talking about their utility or something else completely different, though. I don't want to put words in his mouth, though, as I really have no idea. This is just still a simple change of non-frame-data numbers, though, so it is still nearly as lazy as changing the character combo rate.
Airk Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 No, all I did was check the combo damage on simple little like 2 hit 5A > 5B sort of stuff in the video, and the damage on them is basically the same or very slightly higher - i.e. "lower than it would be if our combo rate were 75 and our normal damage stayed the same."So our combo rate has not changed. Which is fine. I'm just saying, stop attributing increased damage to a change in combo rate, because it doesn't look very plausible.
chzchan Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 I already stopped the moment you pointed out I was wrong, ya know, looking at the other values other than combo rate. I guess I could have also looked at the base damage too. Sorry about that. I probably shouldn't even try to think about what might be causing the increase in combo damage, at least not so shallowly.
Zouf Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 Ok actually it's not j.214Aw anymore but j.236Aw now. It lets you combo with 5C after 623C (which launches much lower now) Kuresu (probably him) beating people right now here : http://www.twitch.tv/central804 236D launches on ground hit now Looks like we can pick up after j.214A with 2A. Not sure edit : the tournament will begin soon with both Kuresu and Spinoza playing in it. We should be able to see a lot of Tsubaki new tech
chzchan Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 Oh boy thanks for that link. 236D now launches into spinning knockback on standing opponents. I knew it. 5BB > 5CC > 236D > 5C(dash) > 2C > j.B > j.C(delay) > 5C > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2C > j.C > j.CC > etc. This was done within the first minute, but it was already at nearly 3.5k before it ended. That was 1 charge off of 5BB > 5CC midscreen. Damn. 421D > 236D might not move forward as far but that may just be Rachel's wind's fault. j.CC > 5CC > 623C > j.214A(w) > 5C > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > (j.236A ?) > j.214A for 2894 I did the same thing offline in 1.1 and get (2592) 2517 damage, so that's a difference of 400 damage for a chargeless combo off of an air to ground confirm j.C. That's amazing. I wonder fi they reverted the global jumping normal P2 nerfs in 1.1.
Zouf Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 It looks like we lost our ability to gain a charge after 22B. Charging after it doesn't look any faster than in neutral
chzchan Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 I noticed that too, but I really can't tell with how the video quality is. The rate may have been toned down to the rate of a charge cancel or something. I saw Kuresu drop (2B > 2CC) > 22D > 6C in the corner. The opponent was able to tech really fast after the wallstick. so that combo path is out the window. I think Blade super maybe MAYBE might have less pushback. Is barrier draining faster, is that just me? Also the 623C > j.236A(w) combos look pretty hard. I don't think we even need to use j.236A(w). I saw Kuresu do multiple paths and j.214A(w) route looks really doable. The 5BB > 5CC > 623C > j.214A(w) > 5C > 2C > j.B > j.C > 5C > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.236A > j.214A 3209 is confirmed. Holy shit that's a lot of damage midscreen for no charge and off of a fairly easy confirm. [] 5BB > 5CC > 623C > j.214A(w) > 5C > 2C > j.B > j.C > 5C > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.236A > j.214A [3209 DM] [23% HG] Seems like max charge for 22D either takes not nearly as long to reach or slightly charged 22D followup causes more wallstick. Kuresu was able to followup Etc. > 236D > 22[D] with 6C even though he couldn't do so with an uncharged 22D out of some ground hits before. [2 Charge + Corner] 5CC > 236D > 22[D] > 6C > j.D > j.C > 5C > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.214A [4409 DM] [36% HG] Looks like we're going to have to followup uncharged 22D corner combos into 5C instead of the superior 6C. That's okay I guess because we have the new j.B > j.C > 5C route. [1 Charge + Corner] 5B > 22D > 5C > 2C > j.B > j.C > 5C > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.214A [3537 DM] [?% HG] Looks like even with corner and charges, you don't do that much more damage than that amazing new midscreen BnB if you take advantage of the new route in both. [75%] 3CC > RC > CT > 6CC > IAD > j.CC(delay) > 5C > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2C > j.CC > j.214A [4794 DM] [11% HG] The old IAD loop lives, but only out of 6CC I guess. Also they must have increased the hitstun on 2C or the startup of non-followup 214B because I just tried out this combo and that 214B after the j.CC > 5C > 2C whiffs and causes the combo to drop. That is a lot of damage for not having to spend any charge at all, even if it does require 75% heat. The 22X series does seem to either charge up faster or get different properties mid charge instead of full charge because Kuresu was able to do 3CC > RC > 22[D] and get the wallbounce midscreen no problem. Max charge 22D seems to send the opponent flying away at a 10-15 degree angle before they wallstick midscreen. It also causes the opponent to spin. Oh boy j.236D > j.214D causes knockdown instead of spinning knockback. I don't know if this is good or bad. If it can still be followed up with 6C, then it is good because it fixes a lot of consistency issues that j.236D > j.214D had with certain characters' hitboxes making them fly off in different directions.
Zouf Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 Not sure why they improved her damage, she didn't really need it. But it seems they improved everyone's damage. Doesn't look like her neutral changed so much. 236D is a nice buff but it pushes back so far you can't reset pressure with 5A. Banana super pushback looks exactly the same to me. This Kagura wasn't using barrier.
chzchan Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 You're probably right, but in the fight with the Rachel, she air barriered the Blade Super and didn't get sent flying across the screen. Specifically the j.236D > j.214D aura itself deals 9 hits as opposed to the 7 that it does currently. They may have buffed its damage output along with changing its knockback properties. Hahaha, Kuresu is trying to use 623D > j.214A(w). Maybe that will be a new way to spend charge. I have been trying to do that as a combo for a long time but it has just not been worth it damage-wise. Uncharged 22 may cause the emergency tech window to appear the same way ending a combo that has the opponent airborne with 22B does right now. So, even if they are holding a direction along with A, B, or C, they will still neutral tech. It forces them to delay tech in order to roll which is pretty okay I guess. Still going to miss slide. This might be incorrect. j.214X series looks like it either starts up way faster or reaches the ground at a much higher speed compared to 1.1. Saw Kuresu try a sorta new but not really Mugen route which was 5CC > Mugen > 623D > j.236D > j.214D > 214D > 22[D] > etc. At this point in the video he is still not sure what to follow up j.236D > j.214D with on hit, so he uses 214D. 3C may have much faster recovery so it might be much less negative on block. [FC] 3CC > 5C > 2C > j.B > j.CC > 5C > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.214A [3759 DM] [27% HG] Turned off air tech in training mode to test out the new 2C > j.B > j.C > 5C route with FC 3CC and only got 3270 damage and 23 heat. The new route gives us about as much damage and heat as doing 2 repetitions of the IAD loop would have. Holy shit 5BB looks like it has an even smaller step forward. Seriously why would they do that? Tried doing the new 3209 chargeless BnB in training mode with air tech disables to use the new combo route and it doesn't do nearly as much damage or have as much heat gain. At the moment 5BB > 5CC > 623C > j.214A(w) > 5C > 2C > j.B > j.C > 5C > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.236A > j.214A in 1.1 deals 2729 damage with 19% heat gain, so they definitely fiddled with some numbers. j.214D causes regular knockdown instead of slide knockdown and leaves you close enough to use 2A to pick up the opponent. I didn't know that 2A OTGs. Huh. Oh! j.214D has j.214C's flight path now. Oh yes how I have wanted this for a long time. -30 degree angle instead of a -60 degree angle. Perfect. It seems that our new combo path out of 214D will be 214D > j.C(delay) > 5C > 2C etc. because 214D is jump cancellable on hit. Pretty neat. You can now cancel into CT out of 214D on hit. So 214D is not just jump cancellable, but also probably has some other cancellability properties as well.
Daedron Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 j.214D seems to have a lot less recovery, or is that just me? wonder if it's less - on block now. unpunishable please?
chzchan Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 It would be awesome if it was + on block. Then it could be used along with its amazing new flight/descent angle as an approach tool maybe. Also, 236C looks like a really really neat gimmick combo ender if you do it after 5C > 2C on an enemy that is airborne. Because you can do some double crossunder shenanigans by running back and forth like crazy. Man this is going to be so much fun. It looks really funny when Tsubaki uses 236D in pressure because both people mash 5A or 2A and they aren't able to hit each other.
zaeris Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 Not sure why they improved her damage, she didn't really need it. But it seems they improved everyone's damage. r. Well I'm going to disagree with having competitive damage, she needed comparable damage compare to others for the same effect, and if 22b doesn't give faster charging I'm fine with that because it was gimmicky in the first place as an added system, a faster charging rate is overall better.
chzchan Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 What I am predicting, though this may be wrong, is that 22B out of Etc. > 236B > 214B > 22 in the corner will be able to be followed up with 2B. Like it looks like it only has as much untech time as an uncharged 22B does right now on air hit, but I think it has slightly more and also our 2B might have been made faster. After testing in training mode, it is definitely possible to go into j.236A oki in the corner out of 2B > 2CC pickup if I am right about the amount of untech time on 2.0 22. If we lost our j.236A corner oki, so what. I know there will be something to replace it. 421D looks really promising because of how slow it is when it first appears. Also, since we won't need to rely on charge as much for damage and we get charges slightly faster, using them outside of combos will probably be okay. Also, if I have guessed correctly with how much damage is possible now, if you start that DP whiff into 2C > j.B > j.C > 5C loop with a 5CC starter, it will do around 3.6-3.7k damage midscreen. That's ridiculous.
Zouf Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 Well I'm going to disagree with having competitive damage, she needed comparable damage compare to others for the same effect, and if 22b doesn't give faster charging I'm fine with that because it was gimmicky in the first place as an added system, a faster charging rate is overall better. It wasn't gimmicky because this is how she was designed. She had competitive damage already. Hitting 3k midscreen, 4k+ corner was fairly easy. I don't really care either way, it looks we traded our free 1 stock for some midscreen meterless damage. But that's when they decided to improve her pressing with 236D being +. I don't really understand where Arcsys is going with this character.
Kiba Posted October 11, 2014 Author Posted October 11, 2014 I'll start the 2.0 combo thread so we get a good headstart when it arrives. Now that I think about, I dunno why we have a combo compilation thread and a combo discussion thread. Might as well just have the 2 in 1 you know. I'll make the combo compilation and you guys can talk about combos there and stuff. Would help me in updating the stuff too.
chzchan Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 With 214D being CT cancellable I can already see some potentially damaging midscreen punish combos. [1 Charge + 25% + CH] 5C > 6CC > 214D > CT > 5C(dash) > 2C > j.B > j.C > 5C > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.214A [? DM] [?% HG] [1 Charge + 25% + CH] 5C > 6CC > 214D > CT > 214B > 5C > 2C > j.B > j.C > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.214A [? DM] [?% HG] [1 Charge + 25% + CH] 5C > 6CC > 214D > CT > 5C(dash) > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2C > j.B > j.C > 5C > 2CC > j.CC > j.214A [? DM] [?% HG] With tech disabled these did between 4.5-4.8k, so that means they will do even more in 2.0 with proration/damage values changed like I expect them to be.
Daedron Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 5A > 2C on air hit doesn't seem to connect. meh.
chzchan Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 5A > 2C on air hit doesn't seem to connect. meh. That means we're going to have to use 5A > 5B > j.Etc. which will be more strict but it'll work. That means they made 2C start up slower because they can't reduce 5A's hitsun lower than level 0. 421D projectile stays in the same place for a pretty long time after appearing. Definite oki potential. Also it just suddenly becomes a goddamn rocket and flies across the screen after a second or so of travelling super slowly. Can be seen here. I'm trying to analyze 22B some more, but the quality isn't good enough for me to measure things. I think just maybe maybe the amount of time you hold 22B down has some kind of proportionality to how long they slide. Of course, the slide is not the full charge slide that we get right now, but this might be something to have fun with. When Kuresu was fighting the Noel and he had his DP blocked, he did j.236D > j.214D and the j.214D went down at the old -60 degree angle. So I think that raw j.214D goes down at the j.214C descent angle and followup j.214D goes down at the j.214A descent angle. can be seen here. So out of both 623X and j.236X, j.236D has the -60 degree angle, but it has the -30 degree angle when used alone. That's pretty cool.
TheGreatReptar Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 I wonder if 214D is actually cancelable into CT or if you have to jump cancel-cancel it.
chzchan Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 That might be the case. Oh well. Also here you go, I made another correct prediction. OD Blade Super holds your opponent completely still while they are blocking, even if they are using barrier. If you watch for a bit afterward, 421D > 236D used on a grounded standing opponent can be followup up with 6C after the spinning knockback. After the 6CC, they went into IAD combo which still works, but only out of 6CC.
zaeris Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 It wasn't gimmicky because this is how she was designed. She had competitive damage already. Hitting 3k midscreen, 4k+ corner was fairly easy. I don't really care either way, it looks we traded our free 1 stock for some midscreen meterless damage. But that's when they decided to improve her pressing with 236D being +. I don't really understand where Arcsys is going with this character.i think you should look again what comparable damage is, compare that to others where they get that damage without stock and just because its her design only implicate a limiter place on her. and those 3k and 4k mid screen are not consistent because we dont have the mix up to properly land those big numbers often, how about getting that damage without using ct, i too thought she had comparable damage until i kept on fighting litchi who doesn't relies on gimmicks to deal considerable damage. trading one free stock for more stable damage and better okizeme game....Yes that does sound terrible =D
chzchan Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 In the corner Grab > 214B > 5C > 2C > 236B > 214B > 22B causes early air tech window to appear. Man I am super duper excited now. Seen here. Also, 236D movement distance has definitely been nerfed. It scales about the same space as the current 236C. So no more 22D > 236D midscreen, but I guess it doesn't hurt too much.
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