chzchan Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Is mugen still a thing? Not like I like it so much (I actually hate this DD, due to his multiple flaws), but it feels nice when you land a 6k combo with it. I wonder if they tweaked OD mugen, since they said every DD would get an OD version. I sure hope it's not just "it decreases slower". They wouldn't do that, would they? What could it possibly do? Make every D special even a fraction as great as Ragna's D normals and D specials when he is in OD? That would be awesome, but you know it isn't going to happen. Also, I really don't mind it. I've been practicing unpredictable resource wasting in matches recently and OD or Mugen cancelling during blockstrings is the most fun thing ever. I like instilling fear into people even though it doesn't last too long and costs way too much for what it gets me. Most people think I will spam D moves nonstop so they usually just sit back and actually block instead of jumping or grabbing me out of my strings and I take full advantage of that because if I do get that one mixup in or that one random confirm they are pretty much dead or forced to burst. Mugen is fun as hell even if its cost/reward is messed up. Using OD on wakeup or after you know blockstun has ended and your opponent is doing something unsafe and then getting the CH 5C > 6C > Mugen is the absolute best feeling ever because nothing can be done to stop the damage from happening and if you already have a good stock of charges and some heat beforehand, you can do a DD ender and get way more than 6k. Probably the best buff they could possibly give Mugen in OD is make it so that it doesn't eat all your charge when it is over if you started it up while in OD. I would love that.
zaeris Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 it's flaws are being burstable and before tsubaki doesn't do enough damage so your opponent didn't need to really burst, you can't force them with lack of resource and using resource such as ct or rc or mugen made for good burst opportunity for your opponent to waste your resources AndOD+mugen was just waste of resources plus hard to come by because bursting was often more important then OD combo. To be fair it does more than her other 2 super minus the banana one.
Zouf Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Its 2 major flaws are being burstable and duration depending on your number of charges. Add to this the fact that you lose every charge at the end, it makes it unpractical in the vast majority of the matches. They could do a lot of tweaks to make it strong. OD Mugen could be unburstable for the duration of the Mugen, it could regen our charges instead of slowing down the meter, it could do a lot of stuff actually. With the new combo system based on a timer, doing Mugen with 2 or 4 charges gives you the exact same combo, only the ender (if you have enough ressources) will change. This is... stupid. Anyway they probably didn't change it at all so whatever, just random ranting here.
Svamparn Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 From Spinozas Twitter. https://twitter.com/Spinoza33/status/522363143712813056 5BBCC > 623C > j.214A/j.236A(whiff) > 5C > 2CC > j.CC > j.236A > j.D (Ball hits) > j.B > dj.BCC > j.214A (3124 Damage) 5BBCC > 236D > 5C > 2CC > j.CC > j.236A > j.D (Ball hits) > j.B > dj.BCC > j.214A (3417 Damage) Let's us gain charge during the combo and not worry about side switching since it dosen't involve using 214B/D.
chzchan Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Wow j.236A has more combo utility now. That's neat. Is this due to the increased gravity / decreased launch height or pushback or did they make the ball have more untech time on air hit? I just asked Spinoza and apparently this is corner only. So our meterless corner combo does like 50-70 less damage than the j.B>j.C>5C route but it gets you 0.5 charges during the combo.
Kiba Posted October 15, 2014 Author Posted October 15, 2014 Btw how did she lose corner j236a oki I think it has to do with the 22B. It doesn't seem like there's enough untechable time (because it's not fully charged?). I still don't understand that part. Anyway, even if you could fully charge it, 22 wallsticks now; the opponent will be higher in the air so it may not work (or may not work as effectively). On the topic of losing stuff, 623C > j.214A also causes knockdown so the corner combos involving the 623C > Delay j.214A > 5C > 2C are gone.
chzchan Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Yup. It just seems like Tsubaki will be doing constant damage regardless of screen position now. Corner changes nothing or at least it seems like it barely changes anything damage-wise. From the new j.236A > j.D, it seems like we will be given the option to not do the combo that works everywhere on the screen if we want to end the combo with some resources without having to hold D after getting the knockdown.
Airk Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Is there nothing we can do with 22D to improve corner damage? That's always kinda been one of the go-to's for corner combos since it doesn't work very well midscreen.
chzchan Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Oh I was just talking about chargeless damage. According to videos, uncharged non-followup 22D in the corner can no longer be followup up with 6C any more, so the damage that we will be getting off of using 22D in the corner will not be that much different from the DP whiff into j.C > j.B > 5C which can be used anywhere on the screen. From Spinozas Twitter. https://twitter.com/Spinoza33/status/522363143712813056 5BBCC > 623C > j.214A/j.236A(whiff) > 5C > 2CC > j.CC > j.236A > j.D (Ball hits) > j.B > dj.BCC > j.214A (3124 Damage) 5BBCC > 236D > 5C > 2CC > j.CC > j.236A > j.D (Ball hits) > j.B > dj.BCC > j.214A (3417 Damage) Let's us gain charge during the combo and not worry about side switching since it dosen't involve using 214B/D. Just tested the chargeless version with tech disabled in training mode. The first one does 2712 out of 5BB5CC right now. Out of 5CC, it does 3111.
Zouf Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 We don't know. We lack too many information about too many things yet.
chzchan Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 After trying out that j.236A > j.D combo in the corner a few times, I realized that it is possible in 1.1 already if you adjust it a bit. 5CC>623C>j.214A(w)>5C2CC>sj.CC>j.236A>j.D>j.B>j.CC>j.214A for 3111 in the corner. 5BB5CC>623C>j.214A(w)>5C2CC>sj.CC>j.236A>j.D>j.B>j.CC>j.214A for 2648 in the corner. So yeah it isn't exactly a new route, but it does more damage in 2.0. Just tried adding 1 charge unconventionally for the sake of it. 5CC>623D>j.214B(w)>2CC>sj.CC>j.236A>j.D>j.B>j.CC>j.214A for 3305 in the corner.
zaeris Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 I think it has to do with the 22B. It doesn't seem like there's enough untechable time (because it's not fully charged?). I still don't understand that part. Anyway, even if you could fully charge it, 22 wallsticks now; the opponent will be higher in the air so it may not work (or may not work as effectively). On the topic of losing stuff, 623C > j.214A also causes knockdown so the corner combos involving the 623C > Delay j.214A > 5C > 2C are gone. okay although i was hoping 22b charge can just go straight into 2cc or tk j236a. with regarding 623c delay j214a was wonky in the first place but now obsolete due to easier midscreen chargeless route.
chzchan Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 Yeah the delay route was really really unreliable and I barely ever went for it. I'll keep asking Spinoza stuff. He said something about using the jump cancellability of 214D. It was like 5CC>623C>j.214A(w)>5C2C>214B>5C2C>214D>j.7D>j.C(delay)>j.236A And that gets you the old corner oki. It costs a dingle, though. I just now realized that the time value that I got for 3.8 charges earlier is actually less than the time value I got for 3.4 charges from the earlier 2.0 PV video. I'm pretty sure this is just a case with sound and visual cues not matching up, but this might maybe just maybe mean that there could be some kind of dependence on the amount of charge that you currently have. In the second video, the Tsubaki started out with ~0.5 charges instead of 0 and she got more charge in less time than the Tsubaki in the 2.0 video did. I should try different techniques for this besides sound analysis because it could be wildly inaccurate. According to Pikuri, the corner combo with j.236A > j.D ending with j.214A > 5/2D will get you 1 charge without giving up your ability to meaty/catch rolls when you end the combo.
zaeris Posted October 19, 2014 Posted October 19, 2014 looks like each charge will be valuable with 214d jcc ct 6cc iad jCC being the new cool
chzchan Posted October 19, 2014 Posted October 19, 2014 Yeah that new route does a ton of damage for being a minimum multi-resource route.
Kiba Posted October 19, 2014 Author Posted October 19, 2014 According to Pikuri, the corner combo with j.236A > j.D ending with j.214A > 5/2D will get you 1 charge without giving up your ability to meaty/catch rolls when you end the combo. I wonder about this. Tsubaki struggles in catching rolls from j.214X ender.
chzchan Posted October 19, 2014 Posted October 19, 2014 Midscreen, yeah it really hard to deal with rolls, but this is a corner combo. I have been testing it. If you tap 5D right as you touch the ground after j.214A and let go, you can still catch rolls with 5A/2A and you will get exactly 0.5 charge. Maybe they increased knockdown time or something to make it not as hard on Tsubaki in 2.0. Hahahaha, as if.
Kiba Posted October 19, 2014 Author Posted October 19, 2014 I was actually referring to the corner. Although you have 2A / 5A / 2B, they are inconsistent in catching rolls.
chzchan Posted October 19, 2014 Posted October 19, 2014 Oh, alright. Sorry about that. They are pretty hard to do every single time because you need pretty precise timing, but at least it is something. I swear j.214X looks like it does knock down for a slight bit longer now, though. I'll have to ask.
Kiba Posted October 19, 2014 Author Posted October 19, 2014 It's fine man no worries. I should've been specific, lol. The untechable time looks about the same to me. I've seen players use the corner j.214X ender into charge cancel > 2A in the attempt to catch rolls, but the opponent rolls straight past them. This is a big issue that Tsubaki faces in 2.0.
chzchan Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Yeah, with the loss of slide ender, there isn't a really solid way of staying on people, even in the corner. Not like she didn't have a hard time sticking to people since forever, though. We may end up having to use charge to end combos now. I just hope we'll have enough to last.
zaeris Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 I be writing stuff as I see them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjxquHWP5pY&t=2m37s with 22d being use there doesn't seem to be anything note worthy to follow up, dash 5c could connect but they have really reduce the time on 22d untech. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjxquHWP5pY&t=3m47s using j214d dash 2b.... it didn't combo so it does look like it mid screen j214d might not be worth the meter, although we could had 6c pick up in the past with dash 2b not connecting I dont think 6c will work. 421D slower acceleration is quite interesting, I'm going to think a 421d oki is going to be quite interesting, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=680D0EVGoQs&t=4m36s hoping this means that the +/- rate on 3c has change somewhat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGJkVujkLUM&feature=youtu.be#t=26m34s 236c ender give interesting oki potential, compare to 214b ender, I think there some interesting potential especially with easier cross over 2b on neutral tech.
chzchan Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Uncharged 22D in the corner has much much less untech time. You have to followup with 5C in the corner so big damage out of 5CC/5B>22D in the corner is gone. 2A is what you will be using to follow up j.214D. It can be followed up midscreen this way according to what I have been reading on twitter, but it did lose its damaging corner route with 6C which is really sad. No more 623C>j.214D>6C route in the corner. It truly truly seems like they are killing her additional damage per charge when used in a combo. I guess she will be doing essentially the same damage, though, because of the changes they did to all her stuff that doesn't require charge in order to give her the amazing chargeless damage I have been seeing in videos. 421D definitely looks interesting. I wish I had the ability to work with it right now to figure things out about it. The reason why 3C seemed positive is because it hit with the latter active frames, so it recovered faster. It is -12 on block, but it has 10 active frames. If you hit with the active frames near the very very end you can get it to be near the same frame advantage of your average charge cancel.
zaeris Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Well even so her 5b is 11 frames I don't think it can challenge valk 5b even with the last active frames so somewhere along a -2 minus plus 11 frames start up. As for charges they seem better to act as hit confirm extension mainly 236d or 214d since they lead to the same combo 5c 2c 214b ectera. I haven't seen much use of OD raid lately although I did laugh at what look like a nerft range of hazama houtenji.
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