Errol Posted May 15, 2015 Posted May 15, 2015 214D is invuln from frame 6, which makes it very strong for calling out some things. You can think of it as behaving, in some situations, like a 5 frame jab that goes halfway across the screen, and gives you an easy 3k? reward even if it is a short starter. (If it weren't a short starter it would be very dumb, yeah.)
Zouf Posted May 15, 2015 Posted May 15, 2015 It's not a jab as it loses to low priority moves. It's an half assed DP with a better reward when it lands. Seeing how Nu is now, getting back our projectile invul on it wouldn't have been too much. I don't even know why they removed it in the first place. Like it was anywhere near OP.
chzchan Posted May 15, 2015 Posted May 15, 2015 Wish it had head invuln. Or actually I wish it had head invuln when it used to track the opponent.
Errol Posted May 15, 2015 Posted May 15, 2015 It's not a jab as it loses to low priority moves. It's an half assed DP with a better reward when it lands. Seeing how Nu is now, getting back our projectile invul on it wouldn't have been too much. I don't even know why they removed it in the first place. Like it was anywhere near OP. i said certain situations. AKA , situations where the opponent isn't going to use a low. Some characters you know are likely to use lows, and some characters you know are very likely to not use lows.
chzchan Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 Would 214D be useful while Tager is 5Ding you when you are magnetized or is that not a good idea? Maybe against his sledge? He doesn't have any super long low attacks that I'd usually see him throw out in neutral and the only projectile he has is spark bolt. Maybe an okay idea?
Airk Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 Would 214D be useful while Tager is 5Ding you when you are magnetized or is that not a good idea? Maybe against his sledge? He doesn't have any super long low attacks that I'd usually see him throw out in neutral and the only projectile he has is spark bolt. Maybe an okay idea? It's not "low" attacks. It's "foot attribute" attacks - this is why most people's 2A blows it up. Tager is weird though. His foot attribute attacks are 5B, 2B and 3C - I was expecting 2A and 2D to be foot, but the CP1 data says they're not.
chzchan Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 Oh whoops thanks for the correction. Well, I don't see him trying to reaction 5B/2B/3C me in neutral unless he like knows that it will work. Tager relies on throwing out mids in neutral when he doesn't commit to a super jump so I don't think giving reaction 214D a shot is that bad of an idea.
chzchan Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 What are you guys' preferred ways of provoking people into mashing? I feel like I haven't been doing that great of a job with this kind of conditioning but it may just be the people I am fighting being smart. I think the most damaging counterhits I get often come from ending pressure with 236A and then using a slightly delayed 22D out of 236A the next time. I feel like I haven't been creative enough in this area so got any suggestions?
Zouf Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 stagger 5CC, and 22D follow up is great too. Dunno, everytime I stagger something, I either eat a reversal, or people can escape by jumping away. I'm not too good in that field either, but i don't know if Tsubaki is really good at this though. Getting used to our new routes now. The frustration from earlier is almost gone, as I don't drop them anymore (or much much less than before). I still don't see much use of our drive. I can extend my combos a little bit with j.214D when I feel the need to do it, but that's about it really. Reaching 4k damage feels almost impossible outside of super starters now. And I absolutely hate the j.236D > j.214D cross over (or not) thing. This is so random you never know which side you'll end up at, truly garbage. The lost of 22B hard KD really hurts our capacity to get charges. I mean, if i'm getting all the okizeme i want and end the match quick enough, i won't even be able to build up 2 charges during the whole round. This is something they'll really need to look into in BB4.
chzchan Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 Yeah that's what I mean. Like ways to provoke non-reversal mashing. Ways to get people into the mindset that they shouldn't just jump away or commit to a reversal while you keep your risk as low as possible. The 236A thing works pretty well because it not only moves you close to the opponent, it tells them that they are pretty safe to try and punish you with a 5A or at bare minimum start pressure from that jab instead of using a DP or just flying away. I want to figure out more stuff like this. Conditioning with charge cancels and delayed followups is so inconsistent.
Kiba Posted May 16, 2015 Author Posted May 16, 2015 What are you guys' preferred ways of provoking people into mashing? I feel like I haven't been doing that great of a job with this kind of conditioning but it may just be the people I am fighting being smart. I use 5A / 2A stagger because you have a vast amount of options after it. After conditioning the opponent to to be honest using frame traps, you can go for command grabs and throws. It's also good for the reason that it allows you to kinda scout for DPs / Reversals. Very straightforward stuff.
Airk Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 For some reason, I am super bad at 5A/2A stagger. Either I do it too fast and there's no gap, or I do it too slow and they can mash me out, which pretty much defeats the point. Lately I've been doing a lot of 6C > 214B (which is a tiny gap in and of itself, and will catch people pushing buttons or trying to jump after 6C) > slightly delayed 22D, which punishes all the people who think 'Okay, I blocked 214B, it's my turn to push buttons now. Otherwise, yeah, delay 5C after 5BB to try to fool people into trying to mash because that's where I do 6A a lot, because I suck.
BatousaiJ Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 Showing you like to charge cancel in certain strings is a good way to promote them to mash some stuff out. I like to do something like 5B> 2B> 5C > CC > microdash 5A/2A etc etc and after I show that once or twice, I'll just go 5C© fishing for counter hits or just 5C > CC > block if I'm baiting DPs. Tsu's pressure is pretty flexible in how she can delay her gatlings for big punishes 5C© CH or even 6B CH can both lead to some big damage. 5A/2A stagger stuff is important too, always using TRM gimmicks along with command grabs in your pressure along with overheads, delays and DP baits and you'll have a fairly strong offense.
chzchan Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 Alright I guess it just makes sense to not always try to provoke people who will block into mashing and just going for grab or command grab instead. Just a side note, I think the command grab got buffed somehow. Going to upload a short video later, but you can do some things with it now that you can't in 1.0/1.1. The only example of this that I have had successful tests on is doing a point blank dashing 5A > 63214C on an opponent who barriers in 2.0 allows you purple grab while in 1.0/1.1 that just is not allowed and doesn't happen under the same conditions. Startup is the same, range is most likely the same and 5A pushback on barrier is the same, so I don't know what the hell they did.
Airk Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 I don't understand. What do you mean by "is not allowed"? There are no circumstances where -something- shouldn't happen there. You should either get a purple grab, a green grab, or a throw whiff. There are no other logical outcomes, since 5A is, indeed, special cancellable.
chzchan Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 No like you just can't get a purple grab out of 63214C after landing a point blank dashing 5A on an opponent that barriers in 1.1. It just doesn't work no matter how early you special cancel it. You can do it in 2.0. Oh wait I think this may have something to do with 5A/2A getting their attack level upped or maybe her 2.0 dash being adjusted? Like I don't even know man.
Airk Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 No like you just can't get a purple grab out of 63214C after landing a point blank dashing 5A on an opponent that barriers in 1.1. It just doesn't work no matter how early you special cancel it. You can do it in 2.0. Oh wait I think this may have something to do with 5A/2A getting their attack level upped or maybe her 2.0 dash being adjusted? Like I don't even know man. So what DO you get? A green grab? If that's the case, yes, it's just the attack level change on 5A.
chzchan Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 No it whiffs completely. It will still catch if you delay the command grab input in 1.1. In 2.0, you don't need to delay it and they will still get grabbed.
Airk Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 If it whiffs, it must be spacing. Most likely they slightly increased the range of the command grab, unless somehow they reduced the pushback on 5A.
chzchan Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 So did 5A/2A pushback change by an ever so slight amount? Like it doesn't seem like it did to me, but that might be the case.
Zouf Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 The range of the command grab probably got buffed. It grabs slightly farther than the normal grab. Be aware that 5A/2A instant barrier blocked won't allow tick throw command grab. The pushback is too big on this one. Even with a dash momentum it doesn't work. The repel effect probably nullifies the slide effect from the character.
chzchan Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 Apparently 623D is still an S starter even though 623C was changed to a VS/Moment starter. If you are willing to blow 3 charges you can do 623D > 236D > 214D and get ~3k or a tiny bit more plus corner carry out of the reversal. Sort of miss being able to do the sideswap j.214B route for only 1 charge and the 6C catch, but this still works sorta.
chzchan Posted May 19, 2015 Posted May 19, 2015 Well, it has a bigger point in non-Mugen combos now that it is stable outside of the corner. It only truly has utility if you have 2 more charges on top of the one you use for the DP.
chzchan Posted May 19, 2015 Posted May 19, 2015 Figured out how to get something like the old j.236A corner oki to work. Costs a charge most of the time, but it does the same thing essentially and this was also possible back in 1.1. If you ever get in a 6C during a combo that is not too close to expiring, you just need to jump backward and do j.D > j.C > j.236A (so j.7D). Should work on everyone except Tager. It works with things like 5A5BB5CC > 236A > 214B > 22[D], so it is just another variation that I plan on using with fluid charge spending out of bad confirms.
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