[CPEX] Tsubaki Yayoi Changes and Discussion

[C0R]

I wouldn't say the pushback changed specifically, it's just a higher level move in the first place, and higher level moves have more pushblock.

[Airk]

I wouldn't say the pushback changed specifically, it's just a higher level move in the first place, and higher level moves have more pushblock.

 

Er, but it sounded like he was saying it whiffed in 1.1 but gets a purple grab in Extend, so either it's LESS pushback, or more range.

[chzchan]

I wouldn't say the pushback changed specifically, it's just a higher level move in the first place, and higher level moves have more pushblock.

Yeah but I can purple grab someone with the command grab if they barrier when I could not in 1.1 when 5A/2A were level 0 moves. I already explained the conditions a couple times, but I don't know why it would be possible now.

[chzchan]

Also, though I am pretty sure this has been shown in a Japanese video before, you can just do 623D > j.236D > j.214{A} and pick up with 5C when the projectile hits. This is very dependent on the spacing of your opponent though. It will not work if your opponent was in the air when 623D hit and, if they were a bit too far away, j.214{A} will not reach the opponent when they are knocked down by j.236D. You can get ~2.8k which is pretty alright for 2 charges though the biggest difference is that you are committing 2 charges regardless of if you hit or not when you'd only lose 1 charge before in 1.1 if you wanted to make the DP safe. You know, then you'd only spend a second charge if you actually hit them with the DP and you'd go into 6C and all that which I miss.

[Zouf]

Did Kuresu stop playing the game? We haven't seen any of his footage for months...

[JyakotuKurayami]

I got to try out CP Extend and I just don't like what they did to Tsubaki at all. I think I'm going to drop her and start playing Nu-13 instead. It's kind of sad, because I really did enjoy Tsubaki from CS2 til CP, but her CP Extend version just isn't doing it for me. I just don't understand why nerf a character that already struggled? Were they trying to get people to look at Izayoi more, since storyline wise, she's supposed to be the more powerful and true version of Tsubaki? Ugh, I just don't understand.

[chzchan]

She got buffed in places where she needed it but she still suffers in most of the same places which made it so that her matchups really didn't change. She is definitely far better than CP 1.0/1.1, but I didn't see it until I played her extensively. Being able to kill my opponent in half the combos really helped out a lot.

[Zouf]

She's not "far" better than CP1...

 

She's slightly better. And she didn't get the buff she deserved (her neutral still sux). She does the job, but she still has shitty matchups (Nu-13 / Jin / Hazama / Litchi are stupidly hard... I'm not even sure she wins against Tager)

 

I pray everyday that they give us back our old 214D that goes through projectiles, because she can be zoned forever as she as no tool to get close safely.

[chzchan]

Feels pretty good to me. Being able to control end positioning in combos super easily and get near full screen corner carry off of anything makes things much better in my eyes on top of the damage buff. Her neutral is still awful and her normals still suck, but she gets way more reward in terms of both damage and screen advantage for the risk she takes (which is the same or slightly more severe than before). The threat of actually killing people in 3-4 non-corner combos gets me respect I definitely didn't have in CP 1.1 where people would just shrug everything off and not care that much if I called them on anything correctly. If I catch a roll (and it is way easier to do so with the changes to her air combo enders) that's 2/5 of their health if I have 1 charge and 25%. If I get a random ground to air hit or just a random air hit, I can convert that into full screen corner carry and decent damage with 1 charge. Then charge acceleration and access to more ways to charge mid-combo thanks to 6CC and 22X series changes gets me more charges for doing all of this shit. Her bad matchups are arguably worse if you look at them from the CP 1.1 perspective, but instead of having to get in 6 or 7 times even after calling them on their wakeup options, you just outright kill them after a couple wrong guesses on their part. Your opponents in CP 2.0 have less chances to make mistakes which changes things a lot in my opinion (unless they are insane and can't be conditioned properly).

[Airk]

She got buffed in places where she needed it but she still suffers in most of the same places which made it so that her matchups really didn't change. She is definitely far better than CP 1.0/1.1, but I didn't see it until I played her extensively. Being able to kill my opponent in half the combos really helped out a lot.

 

At risk of going down this road again, not she did not.  She got buffed in the most boring, unhelpful ways possible for the most part.

 

I don't see "far better" at all.

[Daedron]

 I just don't understand why nerf a character that already struggled?

 

She's buffed, not nerfed.

 

CP2 is her best version yet next to CS2 and I honestly don't think the power gap between them is that big, of course it's hard to say cause CS is a completely different game from CP but still. Take that as you will.

[chzchan]

She got buffed in the most boring, unhelpful ways possible for the most part.

Yes that is correct. These changes are definitely not too creative or cool, but they did provide some kind of stability and consistency which she was heavily lacking in. This isn't the way I would have wanted things but the changes turned out being more indirectly helpful than I originally thought.

I remember writing up essays on why these changes suck and why they were ridiculously fucking lazy on the dev's part back before I was able to experience them. Hell, her damage "buff" isn't even that great when you look at relative damage buffs on other characters for how little risk they have to take compared to Tsubaki. I have not changed my opinion because she still suffers as a character for a lot of the same reasons, but these changes aren't impossible to work with.

[Zouf]

Feels pretty good to me. Being able to control end positioning in combos super easily and get near full screen corner carry off of anything makes things much better in my eyes on top of the damage buff. Her neutral is still awful and her normals still suck, but she gets way more reward in terms of both damage and screen advantage for the risk she takes (which is the same or slightly more severe than before). The threat of actually killing people in 3-4 non-corner combos gets me respect I definitely didn't have in CP 1.1 where people would just shrug everything off and not care that much if I called them on anything correctly. If I catch a roll (and it is way easier to do so with the changes to her air combo enders) that's 2/5 of their health if I have 1 charge and 25%. If I get a random ground to air hit or just a random air hit, I can convert that into full screen corner carry and decent damage with 1 charge. Then charge acceleration and access to more ways to charge mid-combo thanks to 6CC and 22X series changes gets me more charges for doing all of this shit. Her bad matchups are arguably worse if you look at them from the CP 1.1 perspective, but instead of having to get in 6 or 7 times even after calling them on their wakeup options, you just outright kill them after a couple wrong guesses on their part. Your opponents in CP 2.0 have less chances to make mistakes which changes things a lot in my opinion (unless they are insane and can't be conditioned properly).

She could already do everything you said pretty much the same way she does it now, except for the 3k damage off any N starter ressourceless. I agree this is a good buff, but pretty much all the others characters in the game can do that, so it's just a normalization of Tsubaki compared to the rest.

 

Charge acceleration is a joke. It kicks in after 3 install jauge charged only, and anyone knowing a little the Tsubaki matchup will never let you charge that much at a time. It's only helpful against Tager, but we could already get 5 free install against him easily.

 

The fact is : her matchups against good characters didn't improve at all. So she will struggle the same way (even more now that retarded characters like Nu-13 are in the place) than before, against the same type of matchups. Her only tool to get in got nerfed (just... why?).

 

Also, we could already kill people with only 4 combos before. With 22 okizeme, we had a free charge, and any combo with 1 install could lead to 3k or more. This is nothing new, really. 

 

Same thing about corner carry. I fail to see how it improved, i'd even say it got nerfed, because most of the time now you will use the air ender which doesn't carry as far as 22B would do. And with 214B side swapping sometimes, it's even worse.

 

As I said, she's ok, she can do well, but she hits a wall against the top tiers (or even the mid-high tier) that is really hard to overcome. I didn't find how yet at least.

[Kiba]

Hi guys. I'm going to post again. I just got back from watching Avengers. Good movie, I urge some of you to go out and watch that if you haven't already instead of going round and around and around and around. Now, for the main part:

 

She's slightly better. And she didn't get the buff she deserved (her neutral still sux). She does the job, but she still has shitty matchups (Nu-13 / Jin / Hazama / Litchi are stupidly hard... I'm not even sure she wins against Tager)

 

Round 2, but the 'nice' version. I have talked to quite a few Tsubaki players about the Jin matchup, and it seems to me that those who I have spoken to are uncomfortable playing against him. What you need to do, is watch more videos of how he plays, or better yet, go into training mode and find out Jin's capabilities. I am not saying that Jin is not a good character, but what I am saying is that you have a lot of options that doesn't make this matchup as you say, 'stupidly hard'. I am not going to get into this in a great deal, that is what the matchup thread is for, but seriously, do your research. I am telling you that this matchup is not stupidly hard. There is a clear difference between this matchup and Tsubaki against Kokonoe / Nu / Litchi for instance. If you can clearly explain to me what makes this matchup stupidly hard, I will be glad to hear it, because I guarantee it won't change my mind.

 

Tsubaki also has a lot of ways to disrupt Tager, she wins. You just need to avoid doing REALLY silly things. I have gone over this matchup several times, providing a detailed assessment and providing video examples, but unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be sinking in.

 

 

I pray everyday that they give us back our old 214D that goes through projectiles

 

You need to find something more productive to do.

 

 

She could already do everything you said pretty much the same way she does it now, except for the 3k damage off any N starter ressourceless. I agree this is a good buff, but pretty much all the others characters in the game can do that, so it's just a normalization of Tsubaki compared to the rest.

 

Charge acceleration is a joke. It kicks in after 3 install jauge charged only, and anyone knowing a little the Tsubaki matchup will never let you charge that much at a time. It's only helpful against Tager, but we could already get 5 free install against him easily.

 

The fact is : her matchups against good characters didn't improve at all. So she will struggle the same way (even more now that retarded characters like Nu-13 are in the place) than before, against the same type of matchups. Her only tool to get in got nerfed (just... why?).

 

Also, we could already kill people with only 4 combos before. With 22 okizeme, we had a free charge, and any combo with 1 install could lead to 3k or more. This is nothing new, really. 

 

Same thing about corner carry. I fail to see how it improved, i'd even say it got nerfed, because most of the time now you will use the air ender which doesn't carry as far as 22B would do. And with 214B side swapping sometimes, it's even worse.

 

As I said, she's ok, she can do well, but she hits a wall against the top tiers (or even the mid-high tier) that is really hard to overcome. I didn't find how yet at least.

 

Since you're making a comparison to other characters, have you considered the useful things that Tsubaki has that the other characters don't have? Man. So what if Tsubaki still struggles against certain characters, that is up to you to do everything in your power to make it easier for yourself. I mean, damn man, this is the Tsubaki forums, it's home to a glorious amount of information! All this complaining or nonsense talk isn't doing anyone any justice.

 

Do you seriously fail to see how our corner carry improved? And you're saying it got nerfed?? I think I'm going to stop right here before I say anything which bites the bone.

[Zouf]

I won't go into a quote war with you, this won't bring anything except anger, which I don't want.

 

So yeah, that's my opinion about it, you don't have to agree with me, i'm fine with it.

 

Jin is probably the "easiest" MU out of the ones I quoted. It's still hard, definitely not in our favour. His neutral is way stronger than ours, and the only way to disrupt it is to take risky bets. I know quite well this matchup if this is what you ask, but it won't change the fact that I still struggle to get at a range where it's my time to play.

 

While you see it as just a whinefest, I'm definitely not whining here. I'm seriously questionning what's your reasoning about certain things I read here, that is all. 

 

And yes, I fail to see how our corner carry got buffed. Since 22B is not reliable anymore, we have to go for j.214X, which doesn't go as far as our good old ender, and doesn't give us anywhere near the same time to get install gauges. Also, the nerf with 22D follow up is one of the thing that won't allow us to corner carry as much as we could before.

I just like to go with j.214A ender, because you don't end up on the face of the opponent, and it feels much easier to catch forward rolls with this one.

[Kiba]

Jin is probably the "easiest" MU out of the ones I quoted. It's still hard, definitely not in our favour. His neutral is way stronger than ours, and the only way to disrupt it is to take risky bets. I know quite well this matchup if this is what you ask, but it won't change the fact that I still struggle to get at a range where it's my time to play.

 

Now this sort of thing leads me to ask you what exactly you're doing in neutral. I play this matchup, very often, and I don't feel it's extremely hard. I strongly believe that from a competitive aspect it's not as bad as you think. There are several things Tsubaki can do to make it easier. Let me stop beating around the bush.

 

You don't exactly have to rush him down straight away. You can charge, and you can throw projectiles. The projectiles may even be good for helping you to get in. You don't have to take big risks, but I need to seriously see what you and your opponent are doing for you to have this way of thinking. Try and look at this from all angles. If you get hit while you're charging, it means you shouldn't have been charging in that position in the first place, or you were charging for too long. You say you struggle when it's your time to play, what exactly are you doing and how good is the player? I think at this point, you are gonna have to show a video of some sort, because I won't throw chunks of useless information at you. Jin has certain things about his pressure that can make it easier for you to get out. 6C is something: 6C > 6D, 6C > 6B are common denominators and can be beat with a DP, and if you can't react with the DP, it doesn't mean you don't have options which make it easier for yourself. I'll tell you Tsubaki's more frustrating matchups:

 

Mu / Nu-13 / Litchi / Kokonoe / Valkenhayn. I am not basing this on faultless opinion. I've have played against good players using each of these characters on a competitive standpoint so I have a pretty good idea. This is basically why I don't agree with you, that Jin is a terrible matchup, and I'm sure I'm not the only one (not to gang up but w/e). Maybe not in our favour sure, but not bad to the bone. Jin doesn't have anything really disruptive like Kokonoe or Nu. Against Jin, at least you can reliably move in that matchup, so you have to fall on that. So maybe you don't agree with me. I'm fine with that, but I feel like you need to play the matchup more to gain a better understanding.

 

 

And yes, I fail to see how our corner carry got buffed. Since 22B is not reliable anymore, we have to go for j.214X, which doesn't go as far as our good old ender, and doesn't give us anywhere near the same time to get install gauges. Also, the nerf with 22D follow up is one of the thing that won't allow us to corner carry as much as we could before. I just like to go with j.214A ender, because you don't end up on the face of the opponent, and it feels much easier to catch forward rolls with this one.

 

22B is not reliable now sure, but you have j.214B enders now. 22B enders midscreen really put you in a position where you can tag the opponent with a ranged 5B on their wakeup if they neutral tech, and from then, you don't have the best options after that normal from that range. j.214B enders are especially good (yes j.214A is good for the reason you outlined) because they have great corner carry, and add the jBBC combos / 236D launching on hit / j.214D allowing FULL SCREEN corner carry, and you're ready to go. Some options got battered yes, but Tsubaki's corner carry is generally better anyway. 22B enders were good for charge because for oki midscreen, pretty unreliable.

 

On another note, if you add the fact that Tsubaki has a really good way to deal more damage, especially with 214D > CT, that's a pretty major thing. It, kinda lessens the difficulty of some matchups if you will. Now if you hit Nu, you can kill her with 2-3 BnBs insstead of 4+. That extra one makes all the difference. Air enders will help you keep a better lockdown on the opponent rather than 22B enders, so it's all good really.

 

Dude, I have been modding this place for how long now? 3 years? And have been playing Tsubaki since CS1. (Damn). Everyone knows I'm generally here to help and I try to post as much information as I can. I only really bark if I see nonsense, so I'm not intentionally out to get anyone. It's just when you say things like that, it really questions how you're going about playing Tsubaki, or how much you really know about the game.

 

I don't like to classify myself as some know it all guru (far from it), but I feel like I have a concrete understanding of some things.

[Airk]

I think the fundamental problem with the Jin matchup is that for me, at least, it's very difficult to avoid entering the '5C zone' while trying to approach him.   5C shuts down a lot of options, and leaves him with a lot of choices for what to do next, many of which will bring him in to apply pressure (I mean seriously, screw 5C jump cancel on block, and screw Jin's air normals.).   It's very difficult for me to get through the area covered by 5D/2D/the edge of 5C and a Jin who has a strong grasp of these normals basically has to screw up to allow me to play.   Even successfully DPing him out of or after 6B doesn't actually result in -progress- for me, it just means I'm not already losing.

[Kiba]

I think the fundamental problem with the Jin matchup is that for me, at least, it's very difficult to avoid entering the '5C zone' while trying to approach him.   5C shuts down a lot of options, and leaves him with a lot of choices for what to do next, many of which will bring him in to apply pressure (I mean seriously, screw 5C jump cancel on block, and screw Jin's air normals.).   It's very difficult for me to get through the area covered by 5D/2D/the edge of 5C and a Jin who has a strong grasp of these normals basically has to screw up to allow me to play.   Even successfully DPing him out of or after 6B doesn't actually result in -progress- for me, it just means I'm not already losing.

 

Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly with the 6C > 6B. Dp'ing Jin after he uses 6B is very risky. I'd rather just block. I was saying that it's a good idea to DP some of Jin's options after 6C, as they have a gap (the ones I listed above).

 

With the 5C zone, it's pretty much what I said before. Make it so that's it's easier to get a lockdown rather than just rushing in (as explained above). This includes a lot of 744 air dashes too.

[Airk]

Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly the 6C > 6B. Dp'ing Jin after he uses 6B is very risky. I'd rather just block. I was saying that it's a good idea to DP some of Jin's options after 6C, as they have a gap (the ones I listed above).

 

With the 5C zone, it's pretty much what I said before. Make it so that's it's easier to get a lockdown rather than just rushing in (as explained above). This includes a lot of 744 air dashes too.

 

No, I understood what  you were saying, and I added that last comment to basically say "Well, it's nice to land a DP and all, but that's not really enough to turn the matchup around."

 

Similar, the problem with not being too aggressive with Jin (which is, admittedly, a good plan) is that there really isn't any reason for Jin to be super aggressive either.  He too has projectiles, and they're better than ours for the neutral game (ours might be better as a safe pressure ender, but that's not what's important here.).  Getting charges by backing off helps a little bit, but his normals still seem like a big problem.  This generally seems to be what I see when I watch high end matches too.

[BatousaiJ]

Kiba's said more than enough before and again now about this exact topic.

 

If you have trouble heeding the advice from a more experienced and accomplished player in terms of match ups, you're not thinking straight. 

 

[Zouf]

I take back what I said about corner carry.

 

j.214B goes really far and I tried it for the first time during my matches yesterday. I still don't like the fact you end up so close to the opponent, but against hasty techers, I believe this is really good.

 

I'll still go with j.214A most of the time though

[Airk]

Gee, sorry. It's all my fault and I am terrible.  Cool.

[chzchan]

Seems like Konan is pretty popular. Guess there is a voting system.

 

[chzchan]

Found a few ways to do j.236A oki in the corner. You have to deal with the landing recovery of using j.D to halt air momentum, but you can still keep people in blockstun if they immediately roll forward to avoid the projectile.

 

It is charge free if you just get a grab in the corner, though you do sacrifice the 0.5 charges you'd get by charge cancelling 22 as well as the option to end a combo by cancelling into 5D. The other routes cost a charge, but are not complicated and fairly consistent. This is all just to avoid having to do the Konan loop at perfect corner spacing and all that shit just to get the air fireball oki to work. Most likely isn't as legit or legit at all in fact.

 

Ragna can DP on wakeup and hit Tsubaki before she touches the ground, but he will still trade with the projectile.

[chzchan]

Tried doing thing and it worked. You can link j.236A > j.D > j.B midscreen on every character except Makoto, Hakumen, and Rachel. Gets you 0.5 charges mid-combo without having to charge cancel the ender. Does less damage than doing a dashing 5C2C after 236D though. Blowing the 1 charge after a normal confirm using 236D guarantees that you break even charge-wise midscreen if you do charge cancel the ender. I previously thought this was only possible in the corner, but I proved myself wrong in the lab today. Nx4... > 236D > 5B(dash) > sj.BBCC > j.236A > j.D > j.B > dj.BCC > j.214X

 

The combo that you should be doing for max damage without going for the immediate DP whiff combo part and instead doing 236D is: Nx4... > 236D > 5C(dash)2C > 214B > 623C > j.236{A}(w) > 5C2CC > sj.BC > dj.BCC > j.214X but I like that the version I do in the short video carries nearly corner to corner and gets me charge as well. The damage trade-off is ~300 so I am pretty comfortable giving that up for the carry and charge.