[XRD] Sin Kiske Gameplay Discussion "Playing with Poles"

[Dreiko]

jH cancels into jD which you can use to set up fuzzy mixups. jD>j214S is a great confirm too. Safe on block too.

 

 

As for falling bed, you can backdash it and poke him with 236H. It's the most reliable way of low-risk punish beyond trying to poke him out of the sky.

[edollarports]

Yeah, when I said antiair, I meant 6P. It beats bedslam clean, and it's usually a deep CH too, which is good damage.

[BatousaiJ]

Yes, finally a Xrd character I actually want to learn. 

 

Do we have frame data on his moves yet? I'm trying to figure out what's safe and what's not. I'm also curious about the timer scam since I've heard it mentioned and actually never seen it.

 

How does his food eating thing work? The less full it is, the more you recover, I suppose? 

 

So in that case it behooves you to basically use as much as you can before refilling safely at the end of your combo, right?

 

I haven't noticed any bonuses for keeping the meter high or full either so I'm assuming there isn't one.

 

My biggest issue with his combo path is getting a good eye for positing for hitconfirms and continuations, especially his 623S crit continuation stuff. I can get it consistently off RC since I can dictate distance off the better hits and hugging the corner but otherwise, it seems to be a bit hit or miss for me. 

 

Lots to learn about the character so I'm looking forward to it. 

[Tofma]

Can someone tell me about this timerscam thing? Everyone talks about it but I havent seen anybody mention how to do it.

[Dreiko]

Yes, finally a Xrd character I actually want to learn. 

 

Do we have frame data on his moves yet? I'm trying to figure out what's safe and what's not. I'm also curious about the timer scam since I've heard it mentioned and actually never seen it.

 

How does his food eating thing work? The less full it is, the more you recover, I suppose? 

 

So in that case it behooves you to basically use as much as you can before refilling safely at the end of your combo, right?

 

I haven't noticed any bonuses for keeping the meter high or full either so I'm assuming there isn't one.

 

My biggest issue with his combo path is getting a good eye for positing for hitconfirms and continuations, especially his 623S crit continuation stuff. I can get it consistently off RC since I can dictate distance off the better hits and hugging the corner but otherwise, it seems to be a bit hit or miss for me. 

 

Lots to learn about the character so I'm looking forward to it. 

236K and 6H are +, the rest of the stuff vary from safe to punishable. Dust is notably safe, too. You can do interesting frame traps with any of his specials though, food allowing, and you can always end everything in 236K to be + and keep going, which makes his pressure very strong.

 

 

You're right in that Sin basically uses as much food as possible per confirm and then eats up right away. Each eating action brings him to the default 10000 value he starts the round with no matter how much he had before eating so no point in conserving calories as far as combos go. Just don't over-exert yourself and enter starving state. You can always just rc a special, sweep someone and eat though, even if you had no calories when you did the special. Starving state behaves like prolonged recovery, basically, you can even PRC it.

 

The thing with food going beyond the standard fullness level that is beneficial is in the case of meter usage for small, long range combos where you can only confirm into one or two moves or in situations where you're simply pressuring your foe. You get to do more of both if you have more food basically (since something such as a max range 236H, is unsafe to eat after, for example). As for damage, he does so much of it that the base food value is more than enough. Still though, if your foe is just full screen and is LETTING you eat, no reason to not eat first and then go in.

 

 

To get 623S to clean hit without RCing your most reliable way is a 3K>6H confirm vs crouching foes/on counter or heavy punishes with 6H. Blitz shield punishes or baited DPs/bursts are death vs Sin since he gets raw 6H starter on those.

[NagorbMan]

So I played a lot of bedman yesterday. Mostly lost, but here are my thoughts.

It seems like a bad matchup for sin. The head throw you have to dodge, because blocking it allows bedman to have uncontested pressure. After the teleport, as far as I can tell you have to block the incoming mix up. Bull bash is hard to just throw out because his sweep can catch you if you're not max range, but the risk of being stuffed is always there when you use bull bash in a not combo. You can't do the 236k 236h 236k 236h combo ender because he seemed to fall out every time I tried it, and then I looked silly and hungry. His air normals are excellent and really difficult to 6p when he's doing his weird diagonal down movement thing. (his 8 way double jump)

The matchup seems to be that you have to transition quickly from defense to aggression back to defense. You want to meet him in the air, preferably want to be above him. Once you get him blocking things start to look up because he has no reversal. Another plus is that you can 236k under the head throw which is a punish if he doesn't yrc. The bed slam I think is reliably beaten by backdash 236h. I found 6p to be a bit risky because the bed slam is either when I'm off screen or he's directly overhead. I couldn't find many places to shoryu. This matchup might improve if shoryuken became something he would have to worry about. Ground to ground neutral sin dominates bedman, which is unfortunate because bedman is never on the ground.

[BatousaiJ]

236K and 6H are +, the rest of the stuff vary from safe to punishable. Dust is notably safe, too. You can do interesting frame traps with any of his specials though, food allowing, and you can always end everything in 236K to be + and keep going, which makes his pressure very strong.

 

 

You're right in that Sin basically uses as much food as possible per confirm and then eats up right away. Each eating action brings him to the default 10000 value he starts the round with no matter how much he had before eating so no point in conserving calories as far as combos go. Just don't over-exert yourself and enter starving state. You can always just rc a special, sweep someone and eat though, even if you had no calories when you did the special. Starving state behaves like prolonged recovery, basically, you can even PRC it.

 

The thing with food going beyond the standard fullness level that is beneficial is in the case of meter usage for small, long range combos where you can only confirm into one or two moves or in situations where you're simply pressuring your foe. You get to do more of both if you have more food basically (since something such as a max range 236H, is unsafe to eat after, for example). As for damage, he does so much of it that the base food value is more than enough. Still though, if your foe is just full screen and is LETTING you eat, no reason to not eat first and then go in.

 

 

To get 623S to clean hit without RCing your most reliable way is a 3K>6H confirm vs crouching foes/on counter or heavy punishes with 6H. Blitz shield punishes or baited DPs/bursts are death vs Sin since he gets raw 6H starter on those.

 

6H is a better starter than 2H? I've gotten some stupid damage off 2H but I guess I'll screw around with 6H to see what I can get off of it. 

 

How safe/unsafe is 236H? I'm guessing it's based off distance since it seems hard to punish at near to max range. Good to hear 236K is safe, 6H is gonna be harder to use in pressure since it whiffs on crouching it seem. 

[Dreiko]

6H is a better starter than 2H? I've gotten some stupid damage off 2H but I guess I'll screw around with 6H to see what I can get off of it. 

 

How safe/unsafe is 236H? I'm guessing it's based off distance since it seems hard to punish at near to max range. Good to hear 236K is safe, 6H is gonna be harder to use in pressure since it whiffs on crouching it seem. 

Yeah you get fewer normals before the charged 236H in your combo so it does more damage. 2H is still great and easier to hitconfirm but in some ranges 623S may not clean hit while off of raw 6H it always does. 236H is not safe close range but in that range you wanna just 236K anyways since it's faster and a low and it can't be low profiled by grand viper like moves. In max range you may get a sneaky food against an unsuspecting foe (which you can yrc in case they do act up) but most of the time you do not wanna end strings in 236H.

 

The only crouchers 6H whiffs are May Faust and Millia I believe.

[BatousaiJ]

6H seems to be an excellent starter indeed.

 

6H > 623S > 214S > 236K > 2H > 5H > 6H > j.S > jc > j.S > j.6H > j.214S > j.236H = 251 damage.  (277 with super)

 

What's the BnB that uses the charged 236H for that starter in midscreen?

 

Edit- on a side note, j.s > j.k > 2k > 2s > 236K > 236H > 236K > 236H seems to be the most consistent as far as a BnB goes from an air hit.

 

If you use 5S instead of 2S after 2K, it can end up as long range 5S which will often not combo into 236K.

[Villainous]

 

So I played a lot of bedman yesterday. Mostly lost, but here are my thoughts.

It seems like a bad matchup for sin. The head throw you have to dodge, because blocking it allows bedman to have uncontested pressure. After the teleport, as far as I can tell you have to block the incoming mix up. Bull bash is hard to just throw out because his sweep can catch you if you're not max range, but the risk of being stuffed is always there when you use bull bash in a not combo. You can't do the 236k 236h 236k 236h combo ender because he seemed to fall out every time I tried it, and then I looked silly and hungry. His air normals are excellent and really difficult to 6p when he's doing his weird diagonal down movement thing. (his 8 way double jump)

The matchup seems to be that you have to transition quickly from defense to aggression back to defense. You want to meet him in the air, preferably want to be above him. Once you get him blocking things start to look up because he has no reversal. Another plus is that you can 236k under the head throw which is a punish if he doesn't yrc. The bed slam I think is reliably beaten by backdash 236h. I found 6p to be a bit risky because the bed slam is either when I'm off screen or he's directly overhead. I couldn't find many places to shoryu. This matchup might improve if shoryuken became something he would have to worry about. Ground to ground neutral sin dominates bedman, which is unfortunate because bedman is never on the ground.

I haven't fought a good Bedman yet but have you tried 236Hing his projectile? The pole nulifies projectiles when the particle effect is out. 

Just judging from his moveset he seems like he'd be easy to shut down if you rush him. Just don't give him room to breath. 

 

6H seems to be an excellent starter indeed.

 

6H > 623S > 214S > 236K > 2H > 5H > 6H > j.S > jc > j.S > j.6H > j.214S > j.236H = 251 damage.  (277 with super)

 

What's the BnB that uses the charged 236H for that starter in midscreen?

 

Edit- on a side note, j.s > j.k > 2k > 2s > 236K > 236H > 236K > 236H seems to be the most consistent as far as a BnB goes from an air hit.

 

If you use 5S instead of 2S after 2K, it can end up as long range 5S which will often not combo into 236K.

 

I wouldn't say 6H is a good confirm. Usually it won't get the crit from 623S unless you have some momentum or are right on top of them. It also doesn't have active frames till later in the move so it loses to people hitting buttons. I wouldn't use it outside of block strings personally. 

[BatousaiJ]

Ya, 6H doesn't feel like something I'd be throwing around in neutral hoping for it to hit, I was mentioning more in the lines of punishing DPs and the like with long recovery time with 6H instead of 2H like I have been.

 

Also works well for RC scenarios lie 3K > 236H > RC > dash 6H > ETC. 

 

How are you guys gatling into 6H for + for continued pressure in blockstrings? I've noticed 5H and 5P gatlings directly into 6H but they both whiff on crouching which makes it rather shitty for blockstrings. 

 

Edit- Nevermind, I watched a few videos and found out about the 3K > 6H link 2P > 5K > 3K > 6H is probably a sequence of buttons I'll be pressing quite a lot now.  

 

I haven't spent much time with Sin in training mode yet but I'm already finding out all sorts of useful things. I'll likely make a exhibition video for him somewhere down the line in about three weeks or so. 

[Dreiko]

6H seems to be an excellent starter indeed.

 

6H > 623S > 214S > 236K > 2H > 5H > 6H > j.S > jc > j.S > j.6H > j.214S > j.236H = 251 damage.  (277 with super)

 

What's the BnB that uses the charged 236H for that starter in midscreen?

 

Edit- on a side note, j.s > j.k > 2k > 2s > 236K > 236H > 236K > 236H seems to be the most consistent as far as a BnB goes from an air hit.

 

If you use 5S instead of 2S after 2K, it can end up as long range 5S which will often not combo into 236K.

 

For midscreen 6H starter you do this:

 

6H > 623S > 214S > 214P > J6H >623S>214S > 236[H] > 214P-6 > J6H > cS> 5H> 6H > 236H >FOOD/RTL (does like 307 damage on sol with super, 280something with food ender)

[Villainous]

So what do you guys like using for anti air? He's got a few options but I can't decide which is best: 

6P obviously is go to anti air but its hard to combo off of from every height / distance. 

5H has a good hitbox for when they're above you but if it whiffs..... fuck. 

2H has good active frames and hits at all the right angles but I feel like the hurtbox is bigger than the hitbox. 

CH j.S gives you a lot of untechable time for some reason 

623S's hitbox is garbo, I don't trust it as an ait air lol

[BatousaiJ]

Ya, just gonna have to stick with 6P and deal with the fact that you just can't combo off of it unless it's really deep.

 

Every other option is unreliable and too risky from my limited experience since I have tried all of those myself, too.

 

I suppose you can use Sin's fairly good back dash and just space out the air attack back into the ground game where we're more comfortable.

 

You can also use 236K to go under people trying to get to you from the air too since it travels far and has a low hitbox.

 

I like Sin's 623S's ability to go into damage or make itself safe on block but boy does its vertical hitbox suck ass. 

[Jugiatsu]

After the teleport, as far as I can tell you have to block the incoming mix up. Bull bash is hard to just throw out because his sweep can catch you if you're not max range, but the risk of being stuffed is always there when you use bull bash in a not combo. You can't do the 236k 236h 236k 236h combo ender because he seemed to fall out every time I tried it, and then I looked silly and hungry. His air normals are excellent and really difficult to 6p when he's doing his weird diagonal down movement thing. (his 8 way double jump)

The matchup seems to be that you have to transition quickly from defense to aggression back to defense. You want to meet him in the air, preferably want to be above him. Once you get him blocking things start to look up because he has no reversal. Another plus is that you can 236k under the head throw which is a punish if he doesn't yrc. The bed slam I think is reliably beaten by backdash 236h. I found 6p to be a bit risky because the bed slam is either when I'm off screen or he's directly overhead. I couldn't find many places to shoryu. This matchup might improve if shoryuken became something he would have to worry about. Ground to ground neutral sin dominates bedman, which is unfortunate because bedman is never on the ground.

 

The first point is correct.  After the teleport nothing Sin has can beat out what Bedman can throw at you.  Best bet it to avoid the ball all together, but if you can't, then put up the FD and hope for the best.  Another interesting point about the 236K>236H combo is that Bedman is the only character in the game immune to it.  It works on every other character.  Tested in training mode.  He's just too heavy I guess if that's a new thing in Xrd.

 

Not sure I agree on the 2nd point as even at close range his normals can trade reliably with yours.  His c.D is hands down one of the best sweeps in the entire game.  He also can phase/teleport through any move Sin can throw at him including every special you throw out.  Shoryu is sadly worthless unless it is in the middle of a combo and a crit confirm to keep it going.  Tried 6P against the bed-slam and it seems very position based.  Backdash+236H is much much more reliable if you can see it coming.

 

EDIT:

For midscreen 6H starter you do this:

 

6H > 623S > 214S > 214P > J6H >623S>214S > 236[H] > 214P-6 > J6H > cS> 5H> 6H > 236H >FOOD/RTL (does like 307 damage on sol with super, 280something with food ender)

 

This combo string (or anything that involves 214P/K>6H does not work on Bedman either unless you wall stick him prior.  Just like the 236>236H combo posted above he is too heavy and will tech before you can continue the combo.

[Dreiko]

So what do you guys like using for anti air? He's got a few options but I can't decide which is best: 

6P obviously is go to anti air but its hard to combo off of from every height / distance. 

5H has a good hitbox for when they're above you but if it whiffs..... fuck. 

2H has good active frames and hits at all the right angles but I feel like the hurtbox is bigger than the hitbox. 

CH j.S gives you a lot of untechable time for some reason 

623S's hitbox is garbo, I don't trust it as an ait air lol

623S and 6P are the antiairs with notable mention to 5P in some weird situation where 6P and 623S would both be too slow.

 

jS is an air to air, not an antiair move, and as an air to air move jP is way better.

[NagorbMan]

The far slash 236k far slash pressure seemed to catch bedman pressing buttons. In general if he had to stay on the ground for whatever reason, beak breaker and far slash worked pretty well. Oh also random R.T.L worked a lot more than it should have, but Voltic Dein is a lot better use of meter because it creates one of the few gamestates where bedman is at a disadvantage. Of course RC for big damage is an even better use of meter.

[tolore]

Does anyone else have problems comboing slayer? just doing normal strings->236K->623S->236H he seems to just fall out of it.

[Pwnzor]

Yea it'd not bad once u get used to it sweep beak driver I'd good enough

[BatousaiJ]

Does anyone else have problems comboing slayer? just doing normal strings->236K->623S->236H he seems to just fall out of it.

 

it's a hitbox thing probably.

 

236K > 236H > 236K > 236H will whiff on him from what I tried earlier.  

 

They hit the ground too quickly so you have to settle for one loop. I hear the same thing applies to Bedman and some others. 

 

 

NOT A LOW

 

Thanks, Obama. 

[Robawtninja]

The far slash 236k far slash pressure seemed to catch bedman pressing buttons. In general if he had to stay on the ground for whatever reason, beak breaker and far slash worked pretty well. Oh also random R.T.L worked a lot more than it should have, but Voltic Dein is a lot better use of meter because it creates one of the few gamestates where bedman is at a disadvantage. Of course RC for big damage is an even better use of meter.

 

You should be careful of just throwing out Voltec Dein. He can easily dash into it and it'll automatically do his parry teleport behind you rendering your super rather useless. 

[Robawtninja]

Yep. You can mixup with j.HS > land go low or j.HS into j.S after the last hit. 

 

I'm sorry did you mean j.D? Because I'm sitting in training mode and I cannot cancel j.HS into j.S at all.

[Pwnzor]

It doesn't work tried several times

[Brandinoli]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozg9NPbMP2I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7D3QTi5ThA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG-IdH0vJVQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgi0zQIVOA4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlfYQAXxqhw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj80MqJk80E

 

Matches from a couple of days ago with Kid Viper's Elphelt again. 

 

The only thing about Sin's 6P I can say is that if you're having a hard time comboing after it, try 6P > c.S > 5HS (1) > 6HS. This worked when they're about head level to Sin against most of the characters I was able to anti-air and it does A LOT of damage for no reason.

 

Also you can't gatling J.HS into J.S you have to cancel it to J.D. 

 

[Dreiko]

Regarding Slayer, he lands too fast after 236K which causes 236H to not combo, you wanna do 236H first and then 236K vs him.