[XRD] Sin Kiske Gameplay Discussion "Playing with Poles"

[Ferrio]

Any reliable ways to combo from a j.hs?   Really liking the character, but I hate all his jump in options.

[Renegade]

Man, you anime players and your focus on "oki".

It's not the end all be all, especially considering sins neutral.

"Man, Sin doesn't have Millia oki, he sucks!!!"

Space people out w 6P, S, cS, Stab, and fly swatter.

Use ky slide to get in, it's plus on block.

Work on crossups.

He's got big combos off low/high/throw, I'm not sure what else do you need.

He's also great at building up guard bar since he can special cancel so much.

[SquizzleBopped]

I mean, in a game where you can air dash almost fullscreen and footsies is played at mach1, Oki is pretty important. Every hard knockdown you get in this A.D.D world of dashing and fullscreen runs can lead to completely snuffing out that type of insane movement gameplay if you have great meaties and excellent mix up Oki.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

If you look at the top characters in airdashers, they usually have godlike oki or godlike neutral, and often they have both.

 

Looking at Faust/Millia/Ramlethal for example, Faust has godlike neutral and pretty good oki. Millia has good neutral and godlike oki. Pretty sure Ram has both.

 

Sin has none of these. This doesn't necessarily mean he's bad, but it doesn't bode well for your character when he gets out neutraled by Sol and Ky and both of those characters have better oki as well.

[Renegade]

Yeah, but it's so fucking obvious that he's not that type of character.

If you want Millia, play Millia.

Those characters can't get wall splats and ground bounces from nearly full screen.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

He doesn't have to be Millia to be good. That doesn't mean that he's good, though. Being able to hit big combos means nothing if you can't open someone up. The history of GG is littered with characters who wrecked people whenever they got a hit, but were subsequently not all that great because they couldn't land said hit.

[Renegade]

You don't have to land a hit if you can just parry one :-)

And I'm not getting out neutrald by kys and sols, stab eats fireballs and both stab and fly swatter can counter hit them.

Not to mention 5S is kinda ridiculous.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Sol 5S bodies Sin 5S as long as Sol's in range. Neutral =/= fireballs. Sin is not Johnny.

 

Anyway, the point is, don't belittle the value of having strong oki. Sin's neutral isn't bad, but it's not good enough to make up for having weak oki.

[SquizzleBopped]

At match start I was finding Sols and Kys fS would come out faster then my own and they'd get first hit at that neutral. Could try 2S, but still that says something. Don't get me wrong Sin has godlike normals, but in this game you kinda need a pressure tool as well (Projectile to hit them as meaty) to really be top of the shop. Sin would be S++ tier in a SF game.

[Renegade]

Why would you let him in range before hitting 5S? Doesn't make sense.

I know fireballs aren't the neutral, but I assumed sol chasing after a fireball is how he closes that range between sins 5S and his.

I get what you're saying that he doesn't have the craziest mixup options and maybe that's important, but I hate people writing off shit day fucking 3. It's so aggravating.

Of course sol and ky seem super good, they're basic as fuck and almost unchanged. You're fighting 10 year kys/sols w a day 3 character.

The new systems in this game (parry, YRC) are going change so much as people get more used to them and be more creative.

The thing about oki based characters is that you have to be good at baiting/punishing bursts, or you're right back at neutral again. Played a Millia the other night where I basically had burst every other time he got me in corner oki.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Nobody's saying he's doomed. I know it's depressing when people are down on a new character, but you have to keep those limitations in mind while trying to develop him. People in general are spending too much time being focused on how much freakin' damage he does with easy combos and someone comes in to point out some weak points where he might need some extra attention to develop and all of a sudden it's the end of the world?

 

Another thing is you came in like "you anime players and your oki", as if oki isn't just as important in other fighters. Not to mention that neutral doesn't play out in GG the same way it would in a traditional fighter. The movement is just too good for you to sit back and toss out good normals all day.

[SquizzleBopped]

^ I mean, what else do I add here? Titanium Beast just hit it on the head.

[Renegade]

That's not entirely true. Marvel players definitely have a huge skill in confirming stray hits into big damage and then an advantageous setup after a kill (since almost all combos kill a character).

Stray hits come more often when one character has a range/priority advantage. I've gotten a ton of mileage with 214S to stop airdashes after frustrating them with Stabs and 5S on the ground.

I'm not saying it's the end of the world, it's just frustrating.

No Johnny in this game yet, so Sins my guy for now. I've been doing pretty well against the guilty gear players in my area, so I'll keep learning.

[Renegade]

The movement is just too good for you to sit back and toss out good normals all day.

Slash Ky disagrees. Albeit w a fireball too.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Slash Ky is a busted character. Sin is not Slash Ky. You also have to think about the environment a character comes up in; Slash Ky in this game would not be top tier. Slash Ky being top was more a product of Slash being very different from previous GG versions.

 

Also, you mentioned Marvel as if Marvel were a traditional fighter. It's not. It's very anime.

 

SO ANYWAY, yeah, Sin does a lot of damage.

[Renegade]

He does a lot of damage, yes. Almost off any situation, too. And doesn't need meter for it unless it's a throw.

I also think despite his DP being not great, being able to cancel it into hop or meat YRC is very good.

How are you guys using the air slash baiken move? It seems good I just can't get the knack for it other than combos or instant overhead j D

[SquizzleBopped]

Instant overhead: Is our go to and if so what are we comboing from it besides 214 or is 214  / or best up close mix up

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

DP hitbox makes it a weak reversal. No cancels unless it connects, and making it whiff is pretty easy. Still fodder for the true oki beasts.

[SquizzleBopped]

How unsafe is the start up of  for wake up to get out of the corner?

[chzchan]

I tried using DP at locals as ghetto oki as had been mentioned earlier in the thread and it wasn't very successful at catching people. They can still just hop out and leave. I guess I just need to time my meaties better.

[Ferrio]

There frame data anywhere for Sin yet? Nothing on the wiki.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Frame data for the console only characters has not been released yet.

[Linkexelo]

Also holy crap he gets a lot of damage off a 6P for free. This character hurts. 

 

Oh, can you tell me the combo ? I have a lot of trouble doing a combo after it, especially if I hti max-range ! 

And yeah, okizeme options are difficult. I use 2H or 2K. On hard knockdown, especially in the corner, I do 214K j66 jH(3) and then jD->j214S or land 2D. But the timing is different depending on the character. It's difficult against female character :/. I use jD or jD YRC if I have the meter.

[Dream Maker]

Sorry if I sounded like all doom and gloom on Sin in my post, that wasn't my intention. If I really thought the character was shit and doomed (which would indeed be a stupid thing to think 1 week after the release), I wouldn't have tried to contribute to the subject and wouldn't have asked questions as well.

 

I'm not trying to shoot down the character for the sake of it, but as Titanium Beast mentioned I think it's important to be aware of his weaknesses and try to figure out how to cover them. Having hundreds of combo options does no good if you have few practical ways to set them up.

 

And yes, oki is pretty damn important IMO in that game. If Sin had Axl-like neutral he could get away with having even no oki options at all, but this is not the case. Hell even Axl has some normals with long activation time that he can use to meaty an opponent waking up. Actually every other character in the game right now either has a way to set up a projectile okizeme or at the very least has a good normal to use as a meaty.

 

By the way, according to posters on the japanese BBS, 2H's activation frames are 2,2,2 so 6 frames total. It's not great but not as bad as I thought, with Anji I used to be able to set up ghetto meaty okizemes with a well timed 2S and it also had 6 active frames.

 

 

@stickystaines: Thank you for the useful info! I'll have to try that when I'm back home but looks like an useful setup midscreen.

[Dreiko]

Regarding Sin oki, using his aimable 214K to meaty fuzzy crossup jumpins seems the way to go. You can go into this midscreen off of a combo ending in clean hit 214S>food>214K. jH is also a nice meaty tool since you can get the third hit to whiff and then instantly grab someone.