[XRD] Sin Kiske Gameplay Discussion "Playing with Poles"

[NagorbMan]

c.S is close S

[Dreiko]

The thing with 6P is that you have to know your ranges and adjust how you confirm it. It has this issue where in some ranges it'll give you a cS when a fS would have comboed and in those you can't do much beyond confirm 6P with 236H or hope it counters and go for 214S (not recommended).

 

 

I'd say just keep using cS and try to AA from the good ranges.

[chzchan]

I am having trouble mixing people up properly after a knockdown. I have seen how you are supposedly able to do it by meatying j.D after pole vaulting, IAD, or just jumping, but things really start to not work once people start blocking high by default.

How do you even try to go for a low when they can just grab you? It doesn't even seem like a mixup when you need to be as close as possible with the j.D for j.214S to connect and you can't be too close or else you will get grabbed if you decide to land into 2K/D instead of doing momentum stop with j.D.

Just on the topic of mixing and opening people up, what have been your preferred ways of doing so?

[Dreiko]

I am having trouble mixing people up properly after a knockdown. I have seen how you are supposedly able to do it by meatying j.D after pole vaulting, IAD, or just jumping, but things really start to not work once people start blocking high by default.

How do you even try to go for a low when they can just grab you? It doesn't even seem like a mixup when you need to be as close as possible with the j.D for j.214S to connect and you can't be too close or else you will get grabbed if you decide to land into 2K/D instead of doing momentum stop with j.D.

Just on the topic of mixing and opening people up, what have been your preferred ways of doing so?

Once people start blocking high by default, you just don't do the mixup off of jH any more until they stop blocking high again. Going for a low in this fashion is bad. Generally speaking if you wanna go for a meaty low 3K is your friend though.

 

 

Sin is not a mixup character. You don't get hits through mixup, you get hits through frametraps and poking. Just be cautious and patient and don't try to go crazy risky with mixups. Let people open themselves up.

 

 

Alternatively, meaty an airborn voltic dein at people and do stuff behind is as they block it.

[iBeK3n]

Once people start blocking high by default, you just don't do the mixup off of jH any more until they stop blocking high again. Going for a low in this fashion is bad. Generally speaking if you wanna go for a meaty low 3K is your friend though.

Sin is not a mixup character. You don't get hits through mixup, you get hits through frametraps and poking. Just be cautious and patient and don't try to go crazy risky with mixups. Let people open themselves up.

Alternatively, meaty an airborn voltic dein at people and do stuff behind is as they block it.

To add to this. I think that at high level, if you want to force open people with mixup, Sin will rely a lot on YRCs.

I've seen BLEED using bullbash & elk hunt YRC to go for grabs/2p or lows. My friend and usual sparring partner has some pretty nasty dust Yrc mixups with Ky once I start respecting him too much.

So it'll be pretty universal setups that require meter you'll be using, if you want to force openings.

[chzchan]

Ah alright. I had an understanding that he isn't made to mix people up, but I want to at least have something basic and meterless to try to use on people who are patient. Man would I love it if they mashed at the right times for the frame traps to be effective, but the people that I have played actually look at my meter and wait for it to reach a certain point. It is more like they are comfortable blocking until they know I don't have enough food to do much of anything and then they go at it.

 

I'm guessing you need 25/50 meter to even attempt mixups huh. The rest of the time you should just try to hammer your opponent without blowing too much food is what I am thinking now.

[Dreiko]

Yep, build that guard bar up. You get meterless corner grab combos if they get counterhit from a grab and 236K gives you tons of meter since it moves you forward so it's not like Sin is starved for meter.

[chzchan]

I guess I will have to keep track of food meter > tension meter conversion in a fight outside of combos. Maybe keep myself from using 236K in the corner to get more tension out of it or something.

[Villainous]

If you're having trouble mixing people up with lows on wakeup, just try to space yourself out more so you aren't in their grab range. Also its silly but you can do empty jump DP 236H to bait the throw mash as well, if you know for sure they wanna go for it. Its too bad he doesn't have any throw invincible normals but I think his oki isn't bad off of a 236H knockdown into command jump anyway. Just gotta practice the timings. 

[iBeK3n]

Ah alright. I had an understanding that he isn't made to mix people up, but I want to at least have something basic and meterless to try to use on people who are patient. Man would I love it if they mashed at the right times for the frame traps to be effective, but the people that I have played actually look at my meter and wait for it to reach a certain point. It is more like they are comfortable blocking until they know I don't have enough food to do much of anything and then they go at it.

I'm guessing you need 25/50 meter to even attempt mixups huh. The rest of the time you should just try to hammer your opponent without blowing too much food is what I am thinking now.

Considering the fact that Elk Hunt is + on block, I can assure you that you can effectively keep pressure without burning too much calories. People usually try to jump out after seeing how they get pressured for free.

That's when your stagger pressure comes into play. 2K mashing of normals. And 6P, airthrows, and j.P all beat air escapes. There's also 3K that beats lows thanks to its long range. If they barrier block, you have f.S that usually beats jumping out and 2S that destroys mashing.

As for his meterless mixups, you have dust which has a lot more range than I expected it to. You have to condition your opponent to expect a 2S, 2D or 3K. I can assure you that although it's the slowest of the game, it is good if used in scarcely, it's -3 on block.

j.D is another option you have to keep in mind. But it also requires a hell lot of conditioning. You need to make your opponent respect you, making sure he won't use reversals. You also need to be deep inside to combo it without meter. It's a great option against wakeup grabs, also.

That's also raw bullbash that can be used as a mixup tool until your opponent wises up.

Otherwise, as previously said by others, he relies on frametraps. Blocked beak driver > delayed multi-hit followup hits A LOT more than you could expect it.

Another great frame trap is 3K > 6HS ; it gets beaten by reversal-happy people. But they usually either don't hit anything or throw out a normal. 6HS is heavily advantageous on block, which means that either way, it's in your favor.

Also, in terms of oki, Sin has POLE VAULT which is godsent, USE IT! There are safejumps setups on youtube, look them up. My favorite one is hands down a low airdash mid-vault into j.S. There's a certain timing with the K version that will make it hit very meaty if the opponent is crouching or stand blocking and if they try to reversal, it'll get blocked. There are crossup setups too.

Once you get used to it, there's several other mindgames you can go for, leaving gaps on purpose. Like a far knockdown > pole vault P > 6HS, if they have a horizontally weak DP like Sin's, or no DP at all.

Either way, I have too much to say and my mind's all over the place due to being so tired.

Essentially, Sin has so many tools to overwhelm his opponents. It's highly important to think outside the box. I wasn't comfortable with pole vault setups at first. But once you learn one, the rest comes by itself. You'll love it.

Otherwise, there's Leo, Elphelt, I-No, Chipp and Millia that can satisfy your thirst for mixups.

EDIT: I forgot to reply about j.6HS. It might be slow but it has enormous horizontal range. As said, use it for OBVIOUS air-to-air approaches, hard reads. Its range is so good that virtually no other air normals can beat it if you space it right. You'll get CHs, trust me. That then leads to c.S > 5HS(1) > 6HS > crit hawk baker combos which deal a whole lot of damage.

It also has so much blockstun that if they block it, you are the one who'll keep pressuring.

[BladeOfJustice7]

To add to this. I think that at high level, if you want to force open people with mixup, Sin will rely a lot on YRCs.

I've seen BLEED using bullbash & elk hunt YRC to go for grabs/2p or lows. My friend and usual sparring partner has some pretty nasty dust Yrc mixups with Ky once I start respecting him too much.

So it'll be pretty universal setups that require meter you'll be using, if you want to force openings.

Hey, that's me ))))

 

From what I've seen or heard about SIn and the other new characters people are jumping to conclusions too quickly. From what I've seen so far, Sin is well balanced. His damage is REALLY high, especially with 50 meter or in the corner if he had heavy mixups he'd be too strong. I have to agree with Ken's posts, we play a lot and he shows how strong Sin can be. He's only been out for like what, a month and a half? Still a lot to learn about this character.

[Chewie891]

When to Frosty Faustings this and had a blast and learned some new tech with sin. I have a little throw reset if the player techs backwards and a way to grab someone out of their burst. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5bS3M0to10 Let me know what you think 

[Villainous]

So according to loke test changes, Sin can jump cancel 6P now and it floats higher I believe, judging from shoddy google translate. None of the other changes seemed to noteworthy from what I could tell, but that's a huge buff in itself. 

[Dreiko]

As long as it doesn't ruin the good combos off of a close range 6P by floating them too high so that it forces you to jump cancel rather than allow a cS to also combo, that's a great buff. Right now I'm somewhat skeptical about it actually allowing for both things though. The future will tell.

[SoWL]

Sorry for leaving your boy for last, here are the translations:

http://ggxrd.com/locatest.pdf

6P - can now be jump-canceled; recovery increased from 16 to 18 frames.

Hawk Baker (623S) - now floats the opponent even on far hit; the far version's untech time is now the same as the short version's; the far version's blowback is reduced.

Elk Hunt (236K) - the active frames are increased from 5 to 6 frames; the recovery is reduced from 12 to 11 frames; increased the hitbox and hurtbox on the move's start-up; added the starter proration of 90; now floats the opponent higher on hit.

Midair Beak Driver (j.236HS) - removed the landing recovery.

RTL (632146HS) - fixed the bug when you stayed in place when inputting the follow-up commands too fast.

[Dreiko]

Haha, those are all sweet things. Especially Hawk Baker bouncing them up from any distance. Now we get to 236[h] from any range.

 

Also if I'm reading this right elk hunt will be +3 now lol.

 

 

Air beak driver sounds like a useful tool for air to air, it is pretty fast for how huge it is already so with the removal of the recovery I can see great things coming from it.

[BabyMoses]

No landing recovery means TK air beak driver is gonna be even better.  Before, I was doing them as like a jump check, to not let the opponent leave the ground or get a sneaky iad, but now it comes with plus frames (I'm assuming) if you do it low enough and it hits the opponent on the ground.

 

The Hawk Baker floating on far hit, me gusta.

[Dreiko]

Air driver is not + but it's so large that in a certain spacing it might as well be. It's -4 or something but it barely matters. It's more like a "nope! you stay there!" tool.

[BabyMoses]

 "nope! you stay there!" tool.

^Exactly what I was trying to get at.  So, OK, it won't be plus, but low enough, it might cut out on its recovery frames, so the -4 might be 0 or -1.

 

 

 

Also, with the hawk baker buff, does that mean 236K > 623S > 214S will combo even mid-screen now?

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Also if I'm reading this right elk hunt will be +3 now lol.

 

It should be the same, they just shifted frames around. Only difference is if you connect on last active frame.

[Dreiko]

^Exactly what I was trying to get at.  So, OK, it won't be plus, but low enough, it might cut out on its recovery frames, so the -4 might be 0 or -1.

 

 

 

Also, with the hawk baker buff, does that mean 236K > 623S > 214S will combo even mid-screen now?

I'm not sure if midscreen off of a far away range you'd get 214S to hit in a way that allows for 236[H] to combo properly but there should definitely be new routes possible from this.

[Renegade]

2S needs to be a low.

[chzchan]

Man Hawk Baker no longer having proximity requirements means Sin will not have to spend nearly as much meter to convert hits into big damage midscreen. That is, of course, if 236K > 623S is real. Pretty sure adlib combos off of random hits will do way more damage as well.

Also 6P being jump cancellable is great. No longer will AA combos be inconsistent. Really, all the Sin changes are beneficial.

Actually, what other characters have a jump cancellable 6P?

[Robawtninja]

Most have jc 6P from what I've seen.

 

Elk Hunt might not be +3 since they increased the active frames by 1. The increased hitbox/hurtbox on Elk Hunt seems like a nerf to me. He may no longer be able to low profile things which could be a slight problem. The increased active frames/hitbox might be able to make it anti-air from distances better? Not sure. Higher float on slide means more consistent combos of 236K > 236H x2 on the heavy characters which is good and also easier confirms off of CH slide. 

 

Biggest buff is definitely the Hawk Baker. Sin has big damage but not all the time. This means he has more opportunities to go for big damage anywhere anytime. Looks good but I think as far as matchups go, this doesn't seem to change much. 

[iBeK3n]

6P buff is incredible. That means more consistent damage and overall control.

Hawk Baker hitting crit at all ranges might be too powerful. That means even better corner carry, lower calories consumption and better damage compared to midscreen elk hunt > beak driver (1) > elk hunt > beak driver (2). As much as I love it, it's too powerful and I doubt it won't stick. I mean, imagine big damage off of random DP reversals... Either way, it this sticks, his combos will become hella stream-lined and boring.

About Elk Hunt, I read somewhere that it doesn't have the minimum distance requirements anymore to become active. What do you think about that? Personally, I'm liking it since it most likely means being able to use it to go under opponents that jump while corner pressuring us. Perhaps it's a nerf when it comes to blowing projectiles, I don't know.

Air beak driver's air recovery being removed is a big deal to me. It's a pretty minor change, but I've always given it a second thought before using it on neutral. Plus that means a bit more oki control.

And thank god for that RTL fix!