[XRD] Sin Kiske Gameplay Discussion "Playing with Poles"

[Dreiko]

I'm noticing that a lot of JP Sin players using j214S for okizeme. They jump in with the timing of a safe jump, but using j214S delays their air momentum so they hit/land later. I wonder how safe this is on block, or if it's plus? I am 100% sure that they do it to bait out wake-up throw mash and it looks very effective.

If you hit with the last few active frames it's pretty good on block, or at least this is the sensation I get when I have it land in that way. It's prolly not + but coupled with Sin's range and people being used to blocking it earlier than that and going to press buttons it can allow for some interesting situations.

[xlolxlolx]

seize is a really good move in general, low enough it should be slightly plus on block

 

i personally like doing beak enders into a late k vault air dash j.s seize or land sweep slide

[Destin]

Does the sweep -> slide give you the crit hawk afterwards?

 

Anyone know what elk hunt is on IB?  If not IB'ed, is there a natural break between it and beak driver?  I want to understand where his stagger pressure is.

 

The more I play Sin, the less I think he has weak mixup...

[KentoHardRok]

I wouldn't feel to confident in his mix up, it only feels strong against weak players. Try playing a good i-no or milia then you'll see a stronger mix up game.

[Destin]

Well, lol, yeah his mixup game isn't AMAZING.  But it's totally usable and viable, there was a lot of doom and gloom here early on that I just don't see when it comes to his mixup game.

[Zephyrion22]

Sin's mixup game  isn't terrible : His  High/low mixup game is lacklustre at best, but he is really decent when it comes to stagger pressure (frame traps are a form of mixup) and lockdown. The true issue is actually managing to keep the opponent in place to do all that since his okizeme is inconsistent because of the food mechanic.

 

Does the sweep -> slide give you the crit hawk afterwards?

 

Anyone know what elk hunt is on IB?  If not IB'ed, is there a natural break between it and beak driver?  I want to understand where his stagger pressure is.

 

The more I play Sin, the less I think he has weak mixup...

,

        Elk Hunt is slightly + on block, but slightly - on IB  (I'd say -2 or -3 based on attack level and IB reduction). If you input and tap H for a Beak driver  right after Elk Hunt, it will always be an airtight blockstring , but inputting it late or  slightly maintaining the H button will create a gap to become a frame trap (therefore losing against Reversals, but granting you a Beak driver CH against mashing, which hurts a whole lot with a good confirm). Don't forget FD increases blockstun and IB reduces it, so you can't have a set timing to frame trap with it

          As far as stagger pressure goes, don't forget 2K which is quite useful for staggers, since it's + 1 and can be late cancelled into 2HS.(already covered that in previous post). 6HS also allows you to gain frame advantage  (gatlings from 3K, and is also usable on its own in some situations because of it's okay-ish startup for the distance it covers) and then either reset from it or go into late cancel Elk Hunt or Beak for tighter frame traps. 6HS is only +2 though,  and becomes really negative on IB because of its high attack level. 2P is also +2, making it a good way to set some tick throws or IOHs, or simply start a string. Using all these options give a lot more things to look at, especially when you're used to IB or FD Elk Hunt, and allows you to save some calories in the process

        Elk Hunt > critical Hawk never happens midscreen, but works most of the time in the corner, regardless of whether you used sweep or not before. Close  2D into critical Hawk works perfectly fine anywhere on the screen though, making it a great punish for the moments 2HS isn't fast enough

[Destin]

I was looking for a good low option midscreen. I suppose it's between 2k -> 2h link into yada yada crit hawk, or 2d hawk raw dog style (elk on block after hawk). The second option is certainly more damage... 3k calories on block, first option is a frame trap, auto confirms, cranks guard on block, easy confirm, but probably lacking in damage. Ugh I'll run the numbers, I think 2k 2h will be the offline go to.

Id love to have full numbers on elk hunt ib, I'll crunch the numbers myself tonight. Knowing those often helps me make breakdowns when opponents try to escape. Thanks for the info on the airtight blockstring, I'll add the pauses on non ib'd elk hunt.

It's not that I think sin's overheads are that fast (except off on long range vd corner setup, where it is super strong), it that the reward for them is amazing. Midscreen sol knockdown and sin are essentially the same, safe jump or air dash/low. But sin gets half health (or MORE) for any hit. Sol gets like, maybe 120? Sin can also double layer the safe jump, which is awesome. He also gets to use his mediocre overhead WAY more than a good chunk of the cast. It's not great, maybe not even good, but the power of the combo and the frequency of places it can be used help mask it's long startup.

The point I'm trying to make is (and I know you aren't necessarily disagreeing with me), sin is not strictly a "neutral monster". If anything, I think what I have read around places overestimates his neutral and underestimates his rushdown. It's just that good use of his pressure tools into mixups is a fuck ton more difficult than memorizing basic 1/2/3 patterns.

[KentoHardRok]

Word

[xlolxlolx]

exactly, guard bar grinding is probably one of his biggest pros that's why actually doing stuff that makes them block stuff like 2hs and other big +gb moves is important

 

getting them to block 2hs is pretty damn important because it sets up pretty much a 50/50 of sweep stuff or j.hs rtl but they should be fding it so avoid having to deal with j.hs anyways

[Destin]

You can RC that jump h for a chunk of damage as well, character dependent you get a falling j.s, j.6h.

[Eshi]

Does the sweep -> slide give you the crit hawk afterwards?

 

Anyone know what elk hunt is on IB?  If not IB'ed, is there a natural break between it and beak driver?  I want to understand where his stagger pressure is.

 

The more I play Sin, the less I think he has weak mixup...

The blockstun of a move on Instant Block is determined by the level of the blocked attack: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=System_Data_(GGXRD)

Elk Hunt is +2 on normal block and a level 4 attack, so according to the last chart it's -2 on Instant Block. Considering that it also gives much less push back and all of Sin's normals are slow, you have to cancel into Beak Driver or your pressure is over.

[Destin]

Thanks!

[Eshi]

By the way, midscreen sweep > elk hunt doesn't give crit DP in the current version, but in 1.1 you can get swag hit confirms like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpmCJw7GdhM&t=57m03s

[Destin]

Niiiiiiice.

[edollarports]

I couldn't figure out the best thread for this, but since no one's posted a comprehensive thing and I don't feel like scouring hours of footage/23904823904 posts, what are the specifics for VD oki?

 

I know I've seen RTL corner carry 2P 5S 5H 236H VD and that seems about the right distance, are there any other common strings that have the right spacing?

 

Also, what are the common followups? I see j.H (VD hitting) land 2S a lot, as well as 2D 236[H]. Sometimes I see a jump. Anyone want to help me with the specifics/stuff

Also I just suck at dashing as soon as VD recovers i swear that's the hardest part of this damn thing

[Eshi]

When I actually manage to find free time (maybe this weekend?) I'm gonna make a video on VD oki. The perfect spacing for VD oki can be achieved off of a lot of his corner confirms by racking up the combo proration with jKSK loops - the higher the combo, the further your pushback when you finish with beak driver. You want to end close enough that your VD hits them meaty so they can't jump out of your mix-up, but far enough that they block all 4 hits. It can change per character as well due to different wake-up speeds. 

 

My hit confirm off of the overhead option is jH > land > 2H into jKSK loops because it uses no meter. If they block the jH, you get an additional mix-up with IAD jS > j214S, 2D > Hawk Baker etc.

[edollarports]

Oh, right, I forgot about KSK loops. So much char specific stuff. Off a j.H VD starter, is the route still 2H(3) 5H 6H j.KSK?

[Eshi]

Oh, right, I forgot about KSK loops. So much char specific stuff. Off a j.H VD starter, is the route still 2H(3) 5H 6H j.KSK?

Yes. On many characters you don't even need to IAD, just do regular jump and 5H will connect after the first jKSK. You get used to the char specifics after a while but GG is a very complex game indeed.

[edollarports]

Yeah I remember practicing on the more conventional chars, the delay for j.KSK changes randomly. Also on some chars  I had better mileage with j.K double jump j.SK, it was weird

[Destin]

Gg is complex but sin is particularly character dependent because he is new and try haven't ironed him out.

In fact, you don't need all 4 hits of vd, but if you get less you need to change your post confirm. Things like jump h, falling jump s, land 2k 2h become important.

Also, different chars are hit by jump h at different times, some you must be quite close, others far. This changes the distance you need from the char.

[Kimboslash]

JT seems kill the best players with sin!!

What do you think about sol match up? 5/5?

The eternal question, in 1.1 sin is in mid+ tier list?

Thx

[KentoHardRok]

Tier list? Get that garbage out of here j/k that's a matter of opinion for the most part, fact of the matter is he has a lot more tools available to him in 1.1 which gives him much more options and combo potential. Does that change how he compares to everyone else? I guess you have to wait and see what people do with all of these changes. I have seen tier lists change because someone wins a major with a particular character then all of a sudden they are s tier...

[Kimboslash]

Ok Thx what do you think about sol matchup? And what are sin bad matchup?

[Hollysmoke]

Ok Thx what do you think about sol matchup? And what are sin bad matchup?

Be careful of using your DP with him, he can punish it heavily on whiff and if you hit him with it on block, HSVV can punish it if you don't cancel it and almost all special cancels. If you use leap, you'll have enough time to FD block it. If you leap, you might get air thrown but you also have a chance of hitting Sol if he goes for it. There's a bit of a guessing game in that sense. Anyways, Sol at mid-range can outpoke you, but you can keep him out pretty easily at full screen. You need to be careful not to get blown up on a CH by Sol. The match-up tends to be in his favor.

[Zephyrion22]

Ok Thx what do you think about sol matchup? And what are sin bad matchup?

 

This is only from experience + what I've watched, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

-Ralmethal in this ver is the absolute worst for Sin; She completely shuts down our neutral, while getting huge damage and okizemes that can safely deal with our Defensive options

-Elphelt is pretty much the same, but it's slightly more bearable since here our pokes can rival hers in some respect. Still a really bad one for Sin

 

-Tricky matchups are Milia and Chipp : you can two-hit kill them but landing said hits is incredibly hard, and they are nearly unstoppable once they gain the upper hand. Sol is hard because he is so solid in many areas, and his pressure is overbearing for Sin. I-no is hard to deal with because of her foot invul and low-profiling spacing moves, but she is still manageable compared to the two bunny ears beasts. Venom's spacing and zoning is hard to deal with and solid punish occasions are pretty scarce so I'd put him in the annoying MUs too.

 

-The rest goes from okay-ish to good in my opinion, feel free to disagree, character knowledge is key in this kind of issue and I clearly don't know everything about the whole cast !