[XRD] Sin Kiske Gameplay Discussion "Playing with Poles"

[edollarports]

No, they added an active frame. 

 

Edit: If I'm gonna rank meterless reversals in this game, Sin's definitely *would* be one of the weaker ones. 

Pros:
Beats some conventional safejumps

Safe on block

Cons:

Just about everything else

The thing just doesn't perform.

[Destin]

Pro's:

-Beats some conventional safe jumps

-Gets good damage off a jump hit.

-Gets decent damage off a standard hit with meter

-Gets knockdown with meter

-Safe on block (which is huge.  Yes, it can be backdashed, but if you are constantly forcing the opponent to guess your dp with backdash instead of block, without even needing meter to cause that scare you are in a very strong position)

-A considerably smaller window than many dp's for punishing.

 

Cons

-Short range

-CH state

-Slowish

 

Which dp's are you comparing this to that are knocking it out of the water?  Ky's dp can be low profiled so things like safe Jump S -> 2d beat every option outside of wakeup blitz, is 11f, and only does 48 damage on hit.  Axl's is just as slow, but doesn't knockdown and is easily punishable on block.  Chipp's doesn't cause knockdown, and attached to a char like chipp means death if you miss, -30 on block.  Leo's is insanely punishable, and requires a charge, but otherwise is quite a good dp.  Finally sol's dp, which is probably better, but that's the only dp which I would take offhand over sin's. 

 

Being safe on block is a very very large deal.  It forces baits with more dedicated moves, which if called out completely free you from pressure at worst, or give you your own combos at best.

[edollarports]

Antiairing with Sin DP is a hell of a call, and Sin DP loses on all counts if you throw meter into the mix, be it damage/knockdown or otherwise. Sin DP window to punish is enough for a decent player to punish it on uncancelled block/whiff.

Safe on block's only relevant under 50 meter, as well. Above that, it becomes 'everyone else's worked and mine left me sitting here to die'.

Offhand, I would take every DP except Axl's and Ky's over Hawk Baker- Axl DP is just meh, and Ky's is too except as an antiair to offset the 234923 options Ky has otherwise.

It's not that hard to create a situation to beat Sin DP. Most of the cast members can easily play around it and maintain an advantage. 

[Valas Phoenix]

 

Cons

-Short range

-CH state

-Slowish

 

I'll add this: you can't rely on it when you're in the yellow zone of the food gauge unless you get a CH on a flying opponent or you have 50 tension bar. His DP isn't always "available" (it is but you'll get the long recovery after running out) and I believe that is quite a handicap. 

 

If I don't consider the food bar, Sin's DP is fine, because you can special cancel it on block and that's something every character with a DP would love.

[Destin]

Antiairing with Sin DP is a hell of a call, and Sin DP loses on all counts if you throw meter into the mix, be it damage/knockdown or otherwise. Sin DP window to punish is enough for a decent player to punish it on uncancelled block/whiff.

Safe on block's only relevant under 50 meter, as well. Above that, it becomes 'everyone else's worked and mine left me sitting here to die'.

Offhand, I would take every DP except Axl's and Ky's over Hawk Baker- Axl DP is just meh, and Ky's is too except as an antiair to offset the 234923 options Ky has otherwise.

It's not that hard to create a situation to beat Sin DP. Most of the cast members can easily play around it and maintain an advantage. 

Yes, all dp's become safe on block over 50% meter, although that means they have to waste a bunch of meter which isn't nothing, whereas sin wouldn't have to.  Sin's dp punish window isn't a huge deal, but there are situations where you might use it as a full screen eddie callout and not get punished for it where other characters would.

 

It's not hard to create a situation to beat ANY dp.  That's the nature of the move.  It's just that stopping Sin's generally requires a more deliberate move, because they can't just block.  This often gives you openings to get out, especially coupled with his AMAZING backdash, very few characters are going to be able to cover both options with one OS string.  Sin's dp IS fine, it's not the best, but it's certainly not the worst.  I don't look at that move and think man, this move sucks. 

[Flick]

hmm, you guys forgot about OS backdash, a Sin in my local got blown up by me alot by getting CH 6H. I play Pot

[Destin]

Os backdash is a hard call. It's good no doubt, I'm sure all sin's rock it out as well as it bring used against them. Like, if I'm against sol, I can safe jump in, block, and punish sol's backdash in one series. If pote os backdashes, sin can backdash and we reset at neutral.

This is similar to the mixup when sol has 50% meter and you want to draw out the dp.

[Zephyrion22]

Strategy section for wiki is over ! Re-organized into a classic "neutral/offense/defense" format, corrected a few wrong things, along with minor tweaks. Added a quick part about mixup + defensive tools, and a quick overview on burst baiting. I won't add major content to it anymore (It's  already something like three times what I originally planned for the wiki), but I'm still on the look-out for possible errors/new info ! Again, I'm open for corrections/input on what to add/remove or  suggestions on how to edit it for being more lisible !

[chzchan]

In 1.1 change list Elk Hunt's Recovery reduced from 12F to 11F does that mean it's now +3 on block ??

No, they gave it 1 more active frame which means it is the same frame advantage if you hit with the first active frame. It is more positive on block if you hit with the latter active frames which makes it better if you hit from afar like after a 236D.

If you hit with the very very last active frame of 236K now, it will be +7, but it is more common to hit between the second and the fourth when you're doing correctly spaced pressure. If you somehow make the opponent block the second hit of 5H at the max range of f.S, it actually sets you up perfectly to hit in the latter active frames of 236K.

[chzchan]

I seem to be hitting opponents jumping out of my pressure or randomly in neutral with the tip of f.S a lot but they are always positioned so that 236D will not connect.

What should be done in this fairly common case to at least maintain pressure without spending meter?

[Dreiko]

Learn to recognize when it's gonna happen and just don't go into specials.

[chzchan]

So after a 236K for example, should I be doing the command hop instead of f.S? Should I just jump and try to air grab?

[KentoHardRok]

I know just saying "keep trying" doesn't really help but it really is a matter of recognizing where your opponent is. Even if they are standing at max range on f.s its still a bit too far to combo into beak driver. I really dont think there is a right answer on what you should do, or a catch all. i.e. I tend to use command hop a lot to keep pressue on and as a result some Leo and Ky players love to use their anti-air so I will occasionally try to bait an anti-air. 

Just don't try to have one answer to something that is situational, feel it out.

[chzchan]

What is the best way to bait anti-air? Just hold 4 after a hop? Which air normal/special gets the most reward?

[KentoHardRok]

I purposely follow a pattern of command hops after hard knockdowns and backdash last minute. yrc after they commit to land and get them. Its one of those tricks that works once so leave it for a tight situation. Sometimes players freeze and don't even antiair in which case it really doesn't matter what you do, you'll have the upper hand. 

[Dreiko]

j236236P is the best way to bait antiairs because it completely halts your momentum before even becoming active.

 

So after a 236K for example, should I be doing the command hop instead of f.S? Should I just jump and try to air grab?

236K is +2 so you don't have any reason to go into the hop and invite people to airthrow you. Just keep going into it to get their guard bar up while building meter and closing in.

[Destin]

214S in the air isn't bad at hitting certain anti airs, I would mix it in but not make it a go to.

[chzchan]

Oh yeah on the topic of that, is j.214S actually a decent move to use after 214K > Air Dash after a beak driver ender to hit on the opponent's wakeup? I have so far not tried it, but it seems like an okay idea.

[Destin]

Think of J.214 S like a high reward high risk dive kick.  It will bait out an AA, but on block it's no good.

[chzchan]

It doesn't have its attack level listed on the wiki, but if it is level 4 like the rest of Sin's longer ranged specials, I think it may actually be safe to use despite it having 10 frames of landing recovery considering it makes Sin fall faster. I should do some tests since level 4 attacks have 18 frames of blockstun. I think the lowest it could possibly be is level 2 and even then it would have 13 frames of blockstun so if you do the move as close to the ground as possible, you may be able to get it to be even at +/-0 maybe.

 

Okay I was right. I made it ~+3 by doing an air dash super close to the ground before inputting the j.214S. It works. Leaves you outside of grab range at around the max range of 2P while still getting the meaty though I guess this may differ with wakeup timings.

[Destin]

Oh no it's good like that, but you are goin to call out an anti air MUCH higher, earlier block means worse frames ect. But it will clean beat for big damage MANY aa's.

[chzchan]

Oh yeah I'll definitely try it when baiting AAs since getting a CH j.214S is the best. I just didn't have anything confirmed for how effective using a low j.214S on the opponent's wakeup was until now.

[Zephyrion22]

Also, don't forget the "more situational, but still does the trick" j.D YRC. You time the jD just out of their anti-air range, then YRC it, and punish their recovery with j.S or j.6H if they used as standing AA (Most 6Ps). What's nice about it is that if you miscalculated the AA timing/height/reach, the YRC should let you put your FD in time to avoid getting blown up too hard !

[chzchan]

Oh neat I should have thought of that. All I was using j.D > YRC for was mixup out of jump cancellable moves. Seems like a great idea to halt the momentum of a hop with it to call people out on their AAs and get an easy punish if you space it correctly.

[chzchan]

So 2H is apparently almost completely immune to the pushback scaling of combos. Probably not something that most would be able to take advantage of, but it is super good for restand since you will not be sent away from the opponent after using it. Doing 2H > 5D > YRC after doing the final repetition of a Beak Driver loop will leave you in the range to grab the opponent without having to dash > FD brake. So you have a billion different options for mixup if you have 25 meter. Coolest thing is that in the cases where you don't spend 50 meter to go into the loop, you'll probably generate enough meter by the end of the combo to do so; a great example is the path after a corner 5D.