[P4AU] Margaret Gameplay Discussion

[gamewizard108]

If the opponent IBs a lot, they won't be pushed away. Margaret is weak to stuff like that. And people in Japan are mad dogs at IBing, so it should be interesting to see how things go.

 

I guess the number one pro-tip for dealing with Margaret will be IB everything she does.

i wouldn't really consider that a pro tip for beating marg, considering that blockstring isnt even good and your better off going for something else. you dont really need IB to beat marg, the majority of her tools can be jumped on or rolled, that's pretty much how you deal with her.

[R4KID]

Um, I was just messing about but in total it did around 8K max (Liz's health amount). It's quite cool that you can combo God's Hand C or SB after Panta Rhei. The mixup is quite strong too.

[c.Funky]

Midscreen or corner : CH 5C > 2C > 2D > j.22C > 214C > 5B  > 5C > j.C > j.2C > dj.C > j.214AB > 214A > 236236AB > 214214A [7124 damage / 150 meter used] 

 

I can do this easily if I'm close to opponent, but if 5c CH hit far from opponent I can't combo 214C. Any tips please?

[stinkymonz]

oh shit 2C combos from corner SB spear?!? welp, back to the lab. 

[Vvvv]

I can do this easily if I'm close to opponent, but if 5c CH hit far from opponent I can't combo 214C. Any tips please?

you need to dash 214C

[Ragnarok_F4]

oh shit 2C combos from corner SB spear?!? welp, back to the lab. 

 

That's a challenge. But I'm having a bit trouble with this against some chars. When you're a bit afar of the corner (the opponent in the corner) and you try 5C > 236AB > 2C > etc, the lance will land all the hits, the opponent will stick to the wall higher and it is so easy to land 2C. If you're closer to the corner, the lance will land less hit, and the wallstick will be at a lower height, making it harder to land 2C after. I could do it against some chars like Yu, it just need to adjust the timing, but dunno if this hits against the whole cast, since I can't make it to work with some people. Any tips?

 

https://vimeo.com/107560881l

 

The interesting thing there is that: 1) Is not a FC or counter combo, just raw 5C, and 2) Is not 1 combo, there is a reset halfway with 2A then air-tech then 2D. That's great since a lot of combos end with the j214AB in the air and just needs 25% bar for that combo, then ends with a potential reset.

[Loli Bacon]

Can you get out of it by not teching? or even forward teching?

[stinkymonz]

That's a challenge. But I'm having a bit trouble with this against some chars. [...]

Yeah from what I can tell the route is subject to the weird character-specific-ness of corner EX spear. I thought it might have to do with the move hitting 16 times on some chars and 17 times on others -- that one hit difference determining the combo into 2C but Narukami is hit 16 times but can still be 2C-ed. I guess it's a hitbox thing? a specific hit in the move determines the height and not all hitboxes get it? 

anyway, if it works it looks like you get 

j.C 2A 5C 5B 236C+D 2C 2D 236D 5C 214214A+B  (for 5.3k and 100%)

or

j.C 5A 2A 5C 5B 236C+D 2C 2D 236D 214214A (for 5.1k and 75%)

IIRC, the corner standing 214B Hassou Tobi route for 75% maxes out at 4.8k. So character-specificness and harder execution (236D needs to land on a standing opponent) buys you 300 damage. Adding another 25% on top of that buys you another 200 for a total of 500 extra damage. 

Shrug, I personally wouldn't try it in a real match anytime soon. 

off 2A the damage into Hassou Tobi through autocombo 236D, through 214B or through 236C+D are similar enough that it'd be a matter of preference or meter (or character). 

2A 5C 5B 5AAAAA 236D 214A 214214A (3.9k, 50%)

2A 5C 5B 214B 2B j.C j.2C j.C j.2C j.214A+B 214214A (4.17k, 75%)

2A 5C 5B 236C+D 2C 2D 2C 214214A (4.26k, 75%)

 

[Ragnarok_F4]

Can you get out of it by not teching? or even forward teching?

 

I think this will work, it works with similar resets (Kanji's and Adachi's Persona's Air Grabs and Yukari's bomb). However, 2D freezes, so if you don't tech at all you will be stuck in an ice block I think. Forward tech is probably the best option there.

 

snip

 

Yeah, if you get all the lance's hits it is easy to land the combo against everyone, the thing is that to land all the hits the opponent needs to be a bit out of the corner. If the opponent is in the corner and you don't land all 17 hits, the timing will change and I think it will become character specific. But I'm not totally sure, it could be that it needs a stricter timing and I just suck at it, lol.

[Giggles454]

However, 2D freezes, so if you don't tech at all you will be stuck in an ice block I think. Forward tech is probably the best option there.

If you don't tech, assuming 2D hits early enough to yellow beat, it wouldn't freeze since the freeze was already used in the combo.

[Ragnarok_F4]

If you don't tech, assuming 2D hits early enough to yellow beat, it wouldn't freeze since the freeze was already used in the combo.

 

Thanks, good thing that the sweep combo doesn't use 2D at all.

[Zouf]

Yeah, if you get all the lance's hits it is easy to land the combo against everyone, the thing is that to land all the hits the opponent needs to be a bit out of the corner. If the opponent is in the corner and you don't land all 17 hits, the timing will change and I think it will become character specific. But I'm not totally sure, it could be that it needs a stricter timing and I just suck at it, lol.

I tried for quite some time, and on some character it's just plain impossible. Small characters won't get hit enough for 2C to combo.

I know that Shabrys and Minazuki are no good. Yukiko as well if I remember well.

Works fine on Mitsuru and Yu, and Margaret too.

 

It's her only character spec stuff I believe, so it's worth working around it. In any case, you can always do 5C > air combo instead for some additionnal damage.

[So-Called-Chaos]

a couple of routes for blocked 2B in the air that seem relatively safe:

 

J.2C>236C

J.2C>J.2D>Backdash

J.2C>J.2B

J.C>J.2B

 

except for the last one, these all work even when you go under your opponent and end up on the other side, which has been happening a lot to me lately lol

[Dudestory]

Margaret Mix Ups/Resets/Combos

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKq0F3B6bwQ

[susano]

Is she easy on pad? Does anyone use pad here?

[Fortune]

Is she easy on pad? Does anyone use pad here?

I do, but I'm rather stupid so I have no clue on actual difficulty 

 

 

Is a combo thread in the works? Not immediately bothered by the lack of one though.

[Ragnarok_F4]

Is she easy on pad? Does anyone use pad here?

 

Yes, she is. I do. The weird thing is her neutral, but her combos are not that difficult, so she's totally usable with pad without much trouble.

[susano]

Yes, she is. I do. The weird thing is her neutral, but her combos are not that difficult, so she's totally usable with pad without much trouble.

Okay, thanks.

[GBS Giovanni]

Well, not sure if this was previously noted or mentioned but I somehow combo'd 2B>j.C>2D when I drop the combo I was going for. Haven't be able to get in training mode to test this but I saved the replay because it threw me off completely. It was off of a Fatal CH on a teleporting Sho.

[Ragnarok_F4]

Been playing with her a bit offline, she's a beast in the offense. Remember the reset we were talking before? If you delay the 2D a bit, even if the opponent makes a forward tech, Arda will correct the direction and will grab him, LOL (that's a LOT of damage). Also, the damage that comes from frametraps with 5C in counter is huge midscreen, with great corner carry and is easy to confirm even at full screen (spending 75% bar, that's a bit more than 5k without Hassou Tobi and I'm confident that she can deal that damage with 50% bar). She has some kind of problems with rolls, but that's kind of a guess game since she can punish that by delaying stuff. Also her DP is good if the come like way to close, it's something. And 236236A is an awesome reversal it has so much vertical hitbox that it punishes jump-ins, and has so much horizontal hitbox that it punishes more than halfscreen away. I also find the sweep useful when the opponent is about to land from a double jump or something (at least they are kind of forced to block), and she's totally unzonable. Her punishing game is just so good and she can confirm from almost anywhere in the screen, she's very hard to burst or be DPed in a blockstring since she's very far away, Akihiko is having a really hard time trying to get in. She's indeed strong.

[Zouf]

Agreed, she's strong.

 

@GBS Giovanni : didn't you mean j.22D? Well landing 2D might work if j.C hits close enough to the ground.

 

In any case, yes, on FC, 2D will combo with j.C / j.2C

[ThatHiroGuy]

Feels like she requires a lot of meter to force respect for her anywhere but the corner, though. I still think dodge rolls will be the bane of Margaret. I just want to see someone play her at a tournament, and see how well she fares.

[TD]

So marg came out tonight and I'll probably be playing her a lot. Was wondering where I should get started in terms of neutral, pressure, and combos. Especially neutral. Seems like she has plenty of mixup potential and combos seem fairly easy to understand, but neutral seems too easy to be...that easy, I guess. So any help would be appreciated.

I already started watching kubo Margaret, any other good ones out there so far?

[Jotamide]

I am digging her playstyle so much. I always go for rushdown characters but her tools are very unique. Can't wait to start learning more with her!

[ThatHiroGuy]

So marg came out tonight and I'll probably be playing her a lot. Was wondering where I should get started in terms of neutral, pressure, and combos. Especially neutral. Seems like she has plenty of mixup potential and combos seem fairly easy to understand, but neutral seems too easy to be...that easy, I guess. So any help would be appreciated.

I already started watching kubo Margaret, any other good ones out there so far?

 

I start by setting the stage. In neutral, I hardly press j.D, since it's sort of hard to confirm (imo), and on a normal jump, I'm pretty sure you can't do anything other than that. So instead, I judge where the opponent is, and react appropriately. j.2C (for me) is good against people who are too far or horizontal for j.C to hit, and you can throw out other persona moves after it, if you feel the need to. j.2D is great if you're far enough, because it sets the Persona out for you to do anything with it when you hit the ground (it stays in the same general area on screen). On the ground, I try to space 2B for anti-airs appropriately, but I find more success in air-to-airing them with things like j.A and junk, since 2B is hard to use for me.

 

Dash 5A (1 hit) is great, because it forces the opponent to stop about half the screen away to react to either a god's hand, or whatever pressure you have planned out. Typically, I dash 5A>sweep, since it's fast and people sometimes don't expect it. At that point, some opponents stop doing anything altogether, they allow you to start pressure. Others are more resilient, and you'll have to keep your 236C/D game strong, as well as aerial zoning and general defensive tactics.

 

Pressure is simple, but risky. For me, what's yielded most results is just doing 5C>2C, or 5D, or 236D>5C>etc etc. You're fishing for a hit at full screen, or half-screen, more or less. I've said it multiple times, you'll have to judge the situation, because Margaret has a huge issue with people who roll her options, so keep an eye out to make sure you aren't doing the same blockstring, because people WILL catch on. 5A>sweep, 5A>god hand, 5A>5B>5A>sweep, 5A>5C>236D, 5A>236D, so on so forth. You really just have to keep things fresh and react accordingly.