[Xrd] Leo Whitefang General Discussion

[Dime_x]

Some more leo stuff:

When i first said 236s.. I meant 236h as that was the move that i saw Leo's online spamming and owning with... But i got sidetracked somehow and got it confused with 236s... Anyways whatever.

About 236h: it has more range than 236s, and is plus 1 on block and can crossup the opponent and go straight into mixups/combos. The frame data says that both the crossup version and the frontal version are plus 1, but the crossup version feels minus to me, also, this move seems to go through other moves sometimes... Just another thing to chalk up to this move being very good and "offense in a bottle"

Leo has pressure in spades though. 6h is a monstrous pressure tool being plus 5 on block it allows for basically guaranteed (sans reversal) pressure should the opponent regular block it or fd it. Instant block or blitz shield will be the way to beat this move, but yeah.

Other moves that are plus on block: 6H,6K,2S,236H,backturned K,S and H, and then 5K, and c.S from regular stance.

With gaps (rather small ones when online in lag) leo has near infinite pressure by chaining into 6h and then doing another chain into 6h xn thats the threat, the most basic one to make people press buttons or defend in a predictable fashion.

Once leo has respect (which he can gain pretty easily with all the frame advantage he can work with and his hard hitting counterhit combos) is when leo can transition into backturned and do his high/low/counter, mixups.

[Mal]

 

 

My honest opinion is that 2S is actually garbage. 2K fulfills everything you need from a low, and 2S gets counterhit a lot more/more easily. But anyways.

 

 

I think 2S is actually good, ThatHiroGuy, but maybe for different purposes. I mean, it can low profile a lot of stuff (like Sol's jS, 214K, bandit bringer...) that 2K or 2D cannot, and is +4 on block so it can also be used in frame traps.

[ThatHiroGuy]

I think 2S is actually good, ThatHiroGuy, but maybe for different purposes. I mean, it can low profile a lot of stuff (like Sol's jS, 214K, bandit bringer...) that 2K or 2D cannot, and is +4 on block so it can also be used in frame traps.

 

Yeah, we might just differ on those opinions. I think it's harder to actually apply 2S as opposed to 2K. It's just got too little reach, imo. That is to say, if I use it in pressure, it's probably going to be exclusively for what you said, creating a frame trap.

[RentalBlackout]

If you guys want to find out how much advantage on hit a move has, it basically is +1(in addition to what it would have been on block) on standing opponents, +2 on crouchers. The only exception is for lvl 0(lvl 1 if you're referring lvl 1 attacks as the lowest level), that has the same advantage on hit or block. Unless you hit them crouching, +1 then. So 5K on hit is +2, 6K on a crouchers is +6(hence, you can link 5P afterwards).

Counter Hits also add a huge amount depending on the attack level.

It also differs for air hit. It's helpful to refer to a Hitstun Level table. http://dustloop.com/guides/ggac/data/charts.html This is the Hitstun Level table for GGAC(you can also see it under Attack Attributes in the wiki) , but I'm pretty sure it is the same.

Just a word of caution, somehow in the frame data we refer lvl 0 to be the lowest, yet everywhere else we consider lvl 1 to be the lowest(and lvl 5 to be the highest). I don't know why, but this is what the other frame data was like for other characters.

As for playstyle, I don't know why, but Leo reminds me of the later Soul Calibur Siegfried(just with one stance though). I mean I never really played him, but being in BT stance puts you into reverse mixup situations.

[Tomo009]

2S being +4 is interesting, another pressure tool we have.

 

I guess throwing during long pressure strings might be a staple way to get some damage and transition into stance oki, with all those + frames it wouldn't be hard to sneak in a dash > FD brake > throw.

[Uncivilized Elk]

The other thing about 236S being bad at pressure besides what has been mentioned is that at high levels instant blocking is rampant, and would 236S even remain safe from jabs on an IB? 

[Maho]

236S isn't safe on IB against 4f jabs.

[Drake Aldan]

I'm pretty sure there can be a gap in 236s, 236h...

 

I tried this out. It could be an option if you got good enough at it, but for me, I don't think it will be practical. The delay window feels very tight.

 

If you want to truly autopilot, and you're willing to use 5K anyway, you can just do 5K>5P then repeat it again to see how they're blocking.

 

5K > 5P doesn't gatling... Do you mean doing 5K, then doing 5P shortly after?

 

A few characters can interrupt this by jabbing... I guess you could 5K > 5H to call them out on it... eh, but it seems spacing dependent (too close and they can throw you out of 5H).

Eh.. Holes aren't too bad since you're playing against humans, but I still don't like them...

 

A run-up 2S is gonna give you enough advantage to 5P afterwards and beat most things clean... and CH 2S, 5P is a thing on hit.

But 2S is 10 frames, added to the dash I wonder when I'll get a chance to use it.

 

6K honestly is not looking too useful to me. You get + frames but not reliable ways to shut down mashers afterwards (cause of the pushback).

I feel like it is a meaty tool only because of the throw invincibility (and you just happen to get advantage if they block).

 

About 236h:

 

I have been using 236H as a risky way to close distance or start an offense. I think, aside from shenanigans, the best thing to do is to get it blocked from the front... to try to make the timing ambiguous so they don't throw you. The thing is you can still be hit by them sticking limbs out on your approach... 236H would've been better with some armor :P

 

Leo has pressure in spades though.

 

Hmmmm.

 

http://youtu.be/KBTyr59F1dg

 

So it seems this is the key. As long as you have the spacing for 5K to go into cS on the initial blockstring, the vacuum effect of 5H and the forward movement of 5K and 6H should take care of the rest.

 

http://youtu.be/Gp7Zal-DfiA

 

6H, 5K is a 3 frame gap. Only Chipp, with his fast 5P, can CH you out of it, and his timing needs to be perfect. The best he gets is a trade, if you've done it correctly.

4f jabs get wrecked.

 

Three loops of this fills the RISC gauge. If you catch a hit at this point the whole thing will combo for spectacular damage. ("Fatal!")

 

Establishing this opens up the rest of his mixups. 5H/6H > 236H, 5H~P guard, 5H/6H hold, 5H/6H hold BT D, 6H YRC, dash FD brake throw, jumping after cS- what can you think of? (No, seriously, help me out, I need to document all of this.)

You should have answers for Instant Blocking, Blitz Shield, DPs, Overdrives, etc.

 

Faultless will mess it up (specifically it'll keep cS from coming out and turn it into a whiffing fS), but keep in mind that 5H and 6H take big chunks (12-13 tension?) when blocked.

 

http://youtu.be/DfaSch9gviA

 

And you still have the option of skipping cS for just this instance, too.

[HPHatecraft]

Something that might not be known with Leo's BT parry; at a distance, you can nullify most of Faust' projectiles(except the spring board) and the parry will connect if you are close enough. You can also parry a burst, as well as instant kills.

I was thinking about making a video with everything he can parry if it hasn't been done already.

[Uncivilized Elk]

I thought he literally parries everything except throws. Wouldn't it be faster to make a video of the things he can't parry?

[Tomo009]

That tension meter is being decimated.

 

Leo is a mini dark angel in disguise.

 

I think you caught a lot of the important ones DrakeAlden, but [4]6S YRC and especially [4]6HS YRC are also options you can use to go for something dirtier once they are in that position of respect.

 

Also, I managed to parry a burst on my first day of offline casuals, was pretty fun and hilarious at the same time.

[Dime_x]

Yes drake that is exactly what ive been saying this whole time Leo's pressure is the mixup. With this game having so many ways to punish blocking besides rote blocking mixups (you can damage their RISC gauge, their fd gauge and keep them from gaining meter since they are blocking) so leo kinda really doesnt NEED blocking mixups. His mixup is based on knowing that if you block against him forever, you will be in high RISC, no meter, and he will have a ton of meter. Once that is established he also has a parry to make you not want to throw stuff out and get hit by huge ch combos.

This is why i said he has offense that approaches millia or chipp in crazy pressure.... Plus having a good reversal and all the other things he has.

I dont really think he NEEDS to be a tricky character... I think he just does what he does and gets given damage.

Like i have said, i could be wrong but, evaluating his tools he just eats the hell out of RISC and FD bar, after which his offense is just pumped via damage and no knockback. The infinite blockstring is good for now, as i mentioned, but eventually i think we will need to be very careful about where we throw out 6H because of its inherent gap.

What my epiphany was a day ago, was that instead of needing to dash in, to reoffense, leo can just 6h as his dash in.

So strings such as 236s, backdash, 5H>6H, 5k become possible.

And finally... Well not finally, but yeah:

5k combined with 5H i think is going to be a monster of a chain because of the synergy of 5K moving forward, and 5H sucking the opponent in.

Of course there is a gap there that leo can be hit out of... But i digress, leo is the one in charge and he puts the gaps where he wants them.

So to go on with what i was going to say a day ago, leo is a pressure character and low level Leo's i think will be based on his "infinite" pressure into 6H chains. Higher level Leo's though, imho will be more centred around the threat of infinite pressure in order to counterhit the opponent, and so he will be more based on delays and stuff... Imho. I liken his style to tekken hwaorang. Hwaorang has infinite blockstrings that dont push him away, but he has weak/low damage mixup. His damage comes from counterhits. At higher level though he doesnt really use infinite strings but instead counter hit setups.

In tekken he gains nothing from his opponent blocking, so, many opponents just block him for long amounts of time looking for a good read on a breakout, in GG however, leo gains either FD damage, or RISC damage. So leo DOES gain something from going for the pressure option and predicting correctly and getting blocked even if it doesnt do health damage, he's still gaining something tangible other than just mindgames and reads.

Defending against leo, besides the obvious "dont block him in the first place" defense, seems like it will be mixing fd and regular block so as to not allow either to get really hit hard, as well as jump back FD and DA and instant block. Jabbing leo out of his pressure i think is going to become harder and harder as leo players become better and better and start to realize where they can force advantages based on certain spacings and followups. Like 236 s on block up close can be followed up by backdash > 5H or 236s on block from further away can be followed up by 5h to try and counterhit or wiff punish an errant 5p since it will be way out of range of 5p, but still in range of 5H.

Another way to think of him is like a pressure character that uses his pressure to make the opponent wary of sticking out buttons, but then leo uses that hesitation to go into stance and get those nice high/low mixups. I dont really think he has to be played in either way, its just up to the leo player to play him how they want to in whichever style.

/perhaps or perhaps not.

[Uncivilized Elk]

I don't wanna keep pooping on the party but if Leo had multiple blockstrings he could loop that the player could alternate between I would see it as menacing. With one blockstring I see it as a buffet to the Instant Block party.

 

Basically I feel that the higher level the play is, the lower Leo drops in the tier list (ignoring that tier lists are normally set up for the highest levels of play).

[Tomo009]

There are more strings than that.... 

 

5K 2S  to catch them with a shorter string

5K 5S 5HS xx [4]6S probably catches them trying to mash out of 6H

5K 5S xx [4]6HS YRC to catch them in the middle with a deadly setup, can go into stance/whatever mixup you want if they block it

5K 5S 5HS 6[HS] now you are in stance, can punish any mash attempt with D

5K 5S 6[HS] same thing but at a timing they aren't trying to mash

5K 5S 5[HS] does this even have any gaps????

 

Just for a few.

 

Hell, what is 5K's frame data on its own? You could probably even 5K 5HS/5[HS] or even 5K 6HS/6[HS]

 

I think you are looking at him in simplistic terms. Lots of different moves that are + on block and lots of different options of things to cancel into for frame traps mean good pressure, you don't have to just autopilot the "optimal" string every time Uncivilized Elk.

[Dime_x]

There are more strings than that, you don't have to just autopilot the "optimal" string every time Uncivilized Elk.

I feel like ive said this at least 20 times if not more

I even said that leo wouldnt be all about the infinite blockstrings at highish levels.

I mean to any seasoned fg player this should go without saying imho. Nothing is so good that you can just do it all day with no variance. There are no strider doom traps here.

[Uncivilized Elk]

 you don't have to just autopilot the "optimal" string every time 

That's the exact opposite of what I said. What I said was if there are multiple strings that allow loops, that would allow it to be more unclear how the loop will reset and for pressure to actually be quite menacing. So far all his looping involves 5H 6H, both big moves that will be easy to IB or BS at high-level play. My point was the looping region itself is a big sign for a knowledgeable opponent to do something. 

The only possible way to even auto-pilot his block loop is on somebody who doesn't even know about IBs or BSs. And against good players IMO the chance of the loop even being put to good use is slim. 

I guess time will tell, when videos of competent Leos fighting other competent people start coming out.

It's still a good tool for him - I was aware his H moves are + on block before. It's just not a tool that brings him out of the mid tier placement I've mentally set him at.

 

(Yes I'm aware there are easy ways to get around BS and keep with Leo's Janken game, though keeping the pressure up after getting IB'd will be all about really good reads IMO and that might prove a tad difficult.)

[zankoku]

Can't you also short-loop with 5K > 5P? It's a 4f gap instead of the 3f gap offered by 6H > 5K, but that alone makes the loop have two possible routes. If they don't FD, you can probably even throw in 6K at various points.

[Dime_x]

That's the exact opposite of what I said. What I said was if there are multiple strings that allow loops, that would allow it to be more unclear how the loop will reset and for pressure to actually be quite menacing. So far all his looping involves 5H 6H, both big moves that will be easy to IB or BS at high-level play. My point was the looping region itself is a big sign for a knowledgeable opponent to do something. 

The only possible way to even auto-pilot his block loop is on somebody who doesn't even know about IBs or BSs. And against good players IMO the chance of the loop even being put to good use is slim. 

I guess time will tell, when videos of competent Leos fighting other competent people start coming out.

It's still a good tool for him - I was aware his H moves are + on block before. It's just not a tool that brings him out of the mid tier placement I've mentally set him at.

 

(Yes I'm aware there are easy ways to get around BS and keep with Leo's Janken game, though keeping the pressure up after getting IB'd will be all about really good reads IMO and that might prove a tad difficult.)

leo looks to have lots of ways to keep people honest about using IB to hit the 6H after the 5H:

5K>5H>6H is the threat. The opponent can IB the 5H. So instead do 5K,2P>5K

If instead the opponent wants to IB the 6H... Then leo gets a REALLY NICE mixup:

5K>5H>236H

There will be nothing for the opponent to block because the 236H crosses up on near the exact same frame as non crossup 6H would have hit. So a very simple left/right mixup both from non prorated starters coming from 5K pressure.

Leo has an answer for seemingly everything if thought is put into his movelist.

That doesnt make him top tier, but i certainly dont think that IB is going to be an end all against him either.

[Uncivilized Elk]

5K>5H>6H is the threat. The opponent can IB the 5H. So instead do 5K,2P>5K

2P won't even connect unless you do the 5K close enough after a dash. Without a dash it doesn't even hit point-blank.

 

As for 236H dring a blockstring, 236H and 6H both have very obvious wind-ups to them. I have a hard time believing that an opponent wouldn't be able to IB in reaction to the 6H wind-up, or otherwise jab or grab the 236H on reaction to the run-around. If your opponent is themselves running off auto-pilot on the defensive, then you can run town on them with whatever you want, screw frame advantage.

 

5H has that awesome suction but it's also a long move with lots of blockstun. That gives the opponent a lot of time to take a breathe and watch closely for what comes after 5H.

Saying you can just do 236H is akin to saying you could just sweep.

Well you can. But it is still very telegraphed.

[Drake Aldan]

It's just not a tool that brings him out of the mid tier placement I've mentally set him at.

 

Well, yes. It makes him a scrub killer, or, as I've said, the online King.

 

Offline and against real players he'll just be honest- BUT the first thing you have to establish, is "can you deal with the loop".

 

Regarding Instant Blocking - 5K > cS is still gapless. if I'm reading things right, cS is -1 on instant block, which isn't so bad, and it's also jump cancelable.

Instant blocking cS puts a gap before 5H, but it'd be a pretty small one.

 

Instant blocking 5H doesn't change much as you are already putting a gap there. You have 5H~P and 5H hold BT D to deal with DPs and Overdrives/jabs, respectively.

 

Instant blocking 6H is the big one since 6H on instant block is (again if I'm reading things right) +1. STILL... +1 is still a good situation. You might not be able to 5K as easily, but you can still backdash 5H, you can still transition into BT, you can YRC at the last second to throw them off and go into another blockstring- you have all sorts of options (as Dime has mentioned above).

 

The opponent, within a short period of time, is having to decide whether to-

 

- instant block

- blitz shield

- block crossup

- faultless defense

- mash faultless defense throw OS

- execute under pressure without errors

- etc.

 

all at once, and repeatedly, without having too much time to think. That's gonna require some serious processing power, and just a few mixups or delays are gonna throw their whole plan outta whack.

 

It's layers on layers, and I don't think anyone can truly put him dead to rights, but the foundation of it is establishing that loop, and "putting the fear of God" into them.

 

---

 

Some notes, from playing the computer (thanks LizardSquad...)

 

5H is "the money button" since you can start your loops with it if it gets blocked. Carefully confirming off of stray hits/counter hits into a Dritt knockdown will be a good skill to have.

 

236H works well for catching R1F backdash.

 

Flash Kick is... an OK reversal. Because it's a charge and there's no real buffering in this game you get one shot, and then your charge is gone. (Hope you didn't mistime it, or waste it during a gapless blockstring.) Maybe it would be better if the input was plinked or something, i.e. [1]7H~S.

 

In my eyes, knockdown into Dritt, 236H whiff, BT pressure is the best thing you can do, at least at first. (If you get hit out of meaty BT K, it means you mistimed the 236H whiff.)

 

If the enemy blocks your BT H overhead and gets pushed out, it's probably a good time to think about inching towards them for the BT D. Of course, we're talking about sheer reads, here.

I guess you could dash away and cancel stance to be "safe" but cmon, we're playing Leo, right?

 

I like doing 66> BT S > BT H after a successful BT D, since you remain in BT stance. (Personally, I think repeating actions like this- Dritt into BT, BT D into BT, block loops, etc.- serves as psychological warfare, it'll annoy and aggravate most players and cause them to get sloppy, which Leo can easily punish.)

 

Ideally you'll want to be knocking your opponent around midscreen with BT "setplay". Be very aware of your screen position, since you don't want to 236H whiff, and then put yourself in the corner; if you guess wrong, the opponent gets damage and corner control.

Hopefully if it comes to that point you are able to do something like [4]6H YRC instead.

 

After hitting Dritt dead in the corner it's kind of hard to back off and do much else... I think your options are meaty 6K (throw inv) or backing off and maybe cautiously throwing out a 5H or something to fill the space, if you think they won't reversal or something...

 

When you've weathered the opponent down with BT setplay and block loops, stopping at 236H in combos is gonna be pretty scary. If you've stressed out your opponent enough, you might be able to use it more than just a couple of times.

[RentalBlackout]

On block, 5H~H>BT D will indeed catch pretty much every jab if done as quickly as possible(4 frame gap), since you can cancel the last frame of transition with any action except walk. Sol 5K is still 3 frames start up though, however I'm not sure of the range.

6H~H>BT D however has an 9 frame gap in between if done in the same fashion. I don't remember how far 6H pushes back(if any) , but it would be awful to do, even on hit if you end up right next to them. Though if it does push them back, it would be good to catch longer, usually slower ranged moves. Match up dependent of course.

 

EDIT: Fixed a few numbers.

[Mal]

Well, yes. It makes him a scrub killer, or, as I've said, the online King.

 

Offline and against real players he'll just be honest- BUT the first thing you have to establish, is "can you deal with the loop".

 

 

 

I guess after people get to know that a simple throw OS will beat all of Leo's options after 5HS if you try to loop it, this will stop being a thing. Until then, let's enjoy the free online wins :P

[Dime_x]

I guess after people get to know that a simple throw OS will beat all of Leo's options after 5HS if you try to loop it, this will stop being a thing. Until then, let's enjoy the free online wins :P

This is the first thing ive read that gets me down on leo (or at least his pressure). Ive gone over all the options in training mode and i cant find a way to BEAT this other than to just not do the move and do something else.

Many ways to avoid it but no ways to beat it that ive found, even sweep is fuzzyguardable into throw, which can be beat by delaying the sweep perfectly but then leos at negative frames on block with no real reward on hit and still a very hard timing to hit in the first place.

6H is still available raw if gatlinged from 2K or f.S for a different look, but the throw mash is strong and works against those moves as well of course.

The only guaranteed way of getting a 6h to make contact that i can see is using rc for the plus frames, and thats waaaay to expensive just to get a move blocked.

The problem is that leo needs to be +0 on blocked 5[H] but hes at terrible minus frames after the move. The opponent can even mash throw out of 5H>6H on hit...

I dont really know what to make of this guy if you can just easy os against his prime pressure tools, it looks like an oversight by arcsys, but im 99.9% sure that isnt what it is. So idk... But this makes him... Idk... But it isnt good.

[Tomo009]

I don't see the problem, after a blockstring, 5HS doesn't drag them in far enough to be in throw range, you can just frame trap with a [4]6S.

 

5[HS] also is still a good option. Doing a D afterwards will beat anyone without a 3/(maybe 4?) frame startup move and VERY good timing. Yes characters like Sol and Chipp could beat it, but with very strict timing. And that wont be a problem in all matchups anyway.

 

If being throwable made it bad, Ramlethal's Dauro would be bad, you can throw that during blockstrings too. I don't think think Ramlethal's Dauro is bad.

 

If only you could do 6K from 5HS, then it wouldn't even be a thing we would have to combat.

 

For now I'd say if they keep throwing you out of 5HS > 6HS, the main ways to beat it will be S sonic boom or flash kick, which is also possible to do out of 5K 5S 5HS with proper charge buffering and a little gap between 5HS and the flash kick. 

[Dime_x]

Good stuff tomo... I didnt know throw range was THAT small. Wow. Ok. But i tested the frame trap you mention and in leo versus leo it gets beat by leos mashed 4H. So im pretty sure it will work in many matchups since leos H is slow.

So mashing 4H in the leo mirror will stop 5H>6H and 5[H] and 5H>236 S and 5H>[4]6S and even 5H,2K

Character specifics will no doubt apply to certain things. And even though reversals are also possible for leo to use offensively, i dont know how much i could consider a reversal a mainline string.