[Xrd] Leo Whitefang General Discussion

[Mal]

Sorry for putting so much fear into you guy's hearts, a 2D after a 5HS will also beat any throw/throw OS attempts :D (and leave Leo at -1 if blocked)

 

Anyone tryed blocked bt.P oki blockstrings after 236HS? It seems fun to do once in a while. (only works on standing opponents, sadly)
Some ideas - bt.P rising j.K falling j.HS > land, combo if it hits, or blockstring if blocked
bt.P jc j.P delayed j.P j.S jc j.K j.HS

bt.P jc J.K jc j.D hitting on their backs
or bt.P j.D YRC j.K or land 2K

The jD YRC "instant overhead" j.K was a real letdown, imo. After the YRC everyone can see that shit coming from miles away

[Drake Aldan]

http://www.twitch.tv/drakealdan/b/604811702?t=41s Today's session.

 

I haven't yet been able to apply 5K > 2S or 5H > 2D properly... but, I think I am getting to the point where I am solidifying my gameplan, and I'll need to start seriously analyzing my play and/or individual matchups.

 

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Something I was flirting with today was jH > j236H as an "OS"... i.e. you jump around and fish with it, if people don't like to play grounded footsies with you... If they're being overly aggressive you'll catch them.

 

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Some thoughts about BT stance:

 

BT P > BT H looks like a frametrap. You can be thrown out of it, but then it looks like BT P > BT K will catch them low (since they have to hold 4 or 6 to throw, which means they have to stand, right?)

 

Combos off of BT H seem very important to make BT extra scary. I think linking into BT S > rekkas or BT 632146S is a minimum.

 

It feels like if you whiff a parry it's just another diceroll (will they walk up throw or stick out a limb?) unless you're immediately punished for it.

Spending longer periods of time in BT stance kinda feels good when you start parrying consistently, anyway.

 

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[2]8H~S plinking really works well and I strongly suggest everyone start doing this. It's reminiscent of SF's super pianoing, things work nicely when you get multiple chances to hit the reversal.

Saved my ass more than once.

 

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5H ~ P might be good as a fake. Its weakness to lows is what makes it matchup/situationally specific, really.

The thing is you have to visually confirm what your opponent is throwing out before you can choose to interrupt it, unless you're just doing it for the lulz.

 

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2D's foot and throw invincibility seems to make it a good choice for counterpoking (stopping a Millia running in on you, stopping Sin's slide, etc.)

It seems mildly confirmable into RC air combo.

 

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Running gives the faster characters a lot of range on their attacks... It seems to stop them you have to throw out your attack quite early (no reacting to their run).

You can go for 5H > 236S, or 5K > 2H > 236S... I think that would be pragmatic. (5K > 2H may not link at tippy-tip range hitting outstretched hurtboxes, so I guess 5H would be the "safe" option...)

fS requires you get CH or crouching before you can convert it into anything.

 

Maybe [4]6S YRC, to cover yourself if they jump.

 

Geez, fS looks like it should be a good button, but I really don't like it at all, the more I play.

[RentalBlackout]

Yeah, it just goes back to what people earlier said, f. S should totally be an attack level higher.

[LockedAndClush]

The thing with f.S is that it's the only thing that stops the opponent from endlessly crouching, since it only combos to 5HS on crouchers. I like it how it is - not very useful in conventional offense, but great for traps and feints.

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

I was messing around with Leo last night and kept getting thrown out of post rekkas 236H whiff into BT mixup. I could hardly ever hit BT K meaty so I gave up and just went for the safejump for the remainder of the set. It could just be my lack of practice with him, as well as whatever lag I got online. Would I be better off going for meaty BT P > K or HS as a mixup? I'm thinking that if BT P is active enough to be a reliable meaty, then I may be better off going for that to prevent wakeup throws and jump out as well as forcing them to respect whatever followup I chose. My mindset behind it would be kind of like Millia doing meaty 5K on disc oki to lock down.

 

EDIT: The wiki says BT P has 4 active frames so more than reasonable to meaty, as well as throw invuln for the first 8 frames, so assuming that's all right then the above should be more than reasonable no? Are there any characters that can get under BT P via low profile or low crouch?

[TD]

which character were you fighting?

 

bt p is not a bad idea for catching throws on wakeup. it may also catch them trying to jump out if you are really close, similar to k. it leads to an actual mixup between bt k and bt hs n top of being jump cancel and throw invul. it only hits mid though, and isnt plus frames and cant be staggered like bt k. you may want to vary your first hit or parry to match what you think the foe is going to do.

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

I-No and Slayer.

I know Leo's damage is gonna come from hard reads and such. I just suck at meatying BT K so for now I'll use BT P as a pressure starter, at least until I have them respectful/scared.

[Dime_x]

I was messing around with Leo last night and kept getting thrown out of post rekkas 236H whiff into BT mixup. I could hardly ever hit BT K meaty so I gave up and just went for the safejump for the remainder of the set. It could just be my lack of practice with him, as well as whatever lag I got online. Would I be better off going for meaty BT P > K or HS as a mixup? I'm thinking that if BT P is active enough to be a reliable meaty, then I may be better off going for that to prevent wakeup throws and jump out as well as forcing them to respect whatever followup I chose. My mindset behind it would be kind of like Millia doing meaty 5K on disc oki to lock down.

EDIT: The wiki says BT P has 4 active frames so more than reasonable to meaty, as well as throw invuln for the first 8 frames, so assuming that's all right then the above should be more than reasonable no? Are there any characters that can get under BT P via low profile or low crouch?

BT P is a no timing meaty after post rekkas 236H wiff. It is by far the better choice imho. It is a better hitconfirm and it sets up a mixup between BT P>K or BT Px2>H

I wouldnt worry about the P not initially hitting low since the k afterwards does AND because this is primarily a left/right mixup rather than a high/low one. Going low during your left/right does cover more bases, but imho the move specifics for leo in that situation make using P the much better choice overall.

[4gotten_kazama]

Advantage wise after a hard knockdown into stance how valuable would it be to go for dash through mixups as well. Kinda of like slayer except its a little better IMO. Or just in added layer? I mean coupled with conditioning its going to get results and he needs all the damage he can get... 

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

According to the wiki's frame data, BT forward dash has 13 frames of invuln. You could probably use that to get around mashing or when you're + after a blocked BT K, S, or HS.

EDIT: I misread the frame data. There is no invuln on BT 66.

[zankoku]

Backturned forward dash is a bit of a confusing name. It refers to bt.44, and technically, he IS dashing forward...

[Dime_x]

Yeah they are reversed. His dash away from the opponent in backturned is 13f invulnerable, his dash towards the opponent has no invulnerability.

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

Oh my bad. Misread the data.

Still, dash through shenanigans are still viable off of frame advantage or if you get them to hesitate.

[Drake Aldan]

Advantage wise after a hard knockdown into stance how valuable would it be to go for dash through mixups as well. Kinda of like slayer except its a little better IMO. Or just in added layer? I mean coupled with conditioning its going to get results and he needs all the damage he can get... 

 

It's OK. They have to respect you and they can't mash throw when they see you move. (In that case, you can do it while they're on their feet, and it'll still work.)

 

I'd say "added layer". BT stance gets progressively more options the more it is respected, but use any of those options before respect is established and you'll get crapped on.

[Dime_x]

Tbqh i feel that the dash through is the primary mixup option.

You ALWAYS have to play the player, but i dont feel like "respect" is hard for leo to get in that situation. He has meaty moves and countermoves. In order to beat the meatys the opponent has to hit a 2 frame reversal window, just to be allowed the privelege of leaving themselves open to the counter.

The K in the BT P>K forces the opponent to hold their block down and away from leo, which opens up the dash mixup of rekkas>236H wiff>immediate dash through.

Leo can also bait the reversal/mash by rekkas>236H wiff>44 dash>stuff

Some opponents wont want to give leo respect... But thats ok... Leo is happy to put his foot in peoples ass till they get the hint, and he has lots of ways to do it.

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but 5HS > 6HS is a legitimate frametrap against anyone without a 3 or 4 frame normal. Iffy on 5 frame moves. Sometimes CH, sometimes stuffed, sometimes traded. Could be a useful option to get BT from a blockstring against a good portion of the cast.

[pr13st]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but 5HS > 6HS is a legitimate frametrap against anyone without a 3 or 4 frame normal. Iffy on 5 frame moves. Sometimes CH, sometimes stuffed, sometimes traded. Could be a useful option to get BT from a blockstring against a good portion of the cast.

6H can be thrown from 5H. you don't have to ib it either. just be aware that the opponent does have that option.

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

Oh damn. I am a plethora of misinformation tonight.

I tried figuring out other setups into a blocked 6HS but every other gatling option is easily escapable or mashable. So much for that idea.

[Dime_x]

I feel like we should start discussing leo strings /gatlings ie, what strings he has and why to use them over his basic strings:

Leos go to string atm seems to be K>S>H but that string ends in either a huge gap or a minus on block move.

Another string that we leo players might want to take a look at as a go to, is 5K>c.S>f.S

We have a few new options with this string that increase flexibility and may be safer overall than the standard string but ultimately are a bit lower damage than the first string:

If this string hitconfirms against a croucher we can tack on 5H>rekkas and we have 3 hits to confirm crouch as opposed to the first strings 2 hits to confirm.

If this string is blocked we can go into 6H as a risky throwable option but good on block and does big da,age to the opponents risc gauge. Or we can do 6K if we think the opponent will go for a throw, and if they do we get a stagger. If we think they will try an interrupt, we can press 5H and go for the hugely damaging CH 5H>6H starter.

If the opponent gets hit while standing, we can go directly into rekkas for the knockdown, or we can go into a sweep for a different oki look.

So, MANY more options from this string than from the first one.

But that isnt the only string of course, we should try and find alternative strings and what they can be useful for and what leos best strings are imho.

[rubedo777]

Someone please explain this character to me...as someone who is constantly fighting against Leo players, I don't have a clue what they are doing. It seems everyone is just mashing all the buttons and everything just links together. I can't tell when strings end and the next ones begin, there seems to be no end to it...what is going on with this masher character?

[TD]

hes not the most difficult character in the game... however xrd is fairly new for everyone. once players get better, learning curves wont matter as much as matchups.

 

he is mostly a momentum based character that depends on hard reads and frame advantage. he has multiple defensive tools in parries, a counter, and what is likely a slightly above average dp. many of his normals are plus and he can stagger well. his more immediately threatening mixups are easily disrespected with throws, but knowing when and how (which seems like your issue) is not always easy. especially if he has yrc or rrc. you should be looking to see what the leo players like to do, and then post what it is you are having issues with. they need to hard read you as much as you need to do to them.

[Dime_x]

Someone please explain this character to me...as someone who is constantly fighting against Leo players, I don't have a clue what they are doing. It seems everyone is just mashing all the buttons and everything just links together. I can't tell when strings end and the next ones begin, there seems to be no end to it...what is going on with this masher character?

One way to NOT get help is to go on a forum dedicated to a character and call the people that play that character, mashers. While asking for their help no less. You come of as "hey mashers that im better than, could you tell me how to beat your mashing, because im so good that i need your mashy advice".

Anyways to answer your question, without video we cant really give you any advice WITHOUT guessing at the problem. And not knowing your character doesnt help either.

So i will just guess the problem and give you an obvious answer even though you can use the replay function to see what strings your opponent is using and then recreate those strings in training mode and find out your own counters... We will help out.

The string that you are probably having trouble with is leos infinite blockstring:

5K>S>H>6H (repeat)

The important part is that 6H is plus 5 on block and that the 5H>6H string has a throwable gap in it. So, you have to go into training mode and look at what leos 6H looks like, and when fighting leo players, learn the patterns they are using to chain into 6H and throw them in the startup of 6H.

Thats the counter, just throw them.

Leo has other plus on block moves but none that allow him to repeat his string indefenitely, also, what you call mashing is just a leo player doing a chain over and over again and you not knowing the matchup and getting counterhit alot. The easiest way to beat any pressure character like leo is to not let them start their offense in the first place... Easier said than done, but its so fundamental that i would be remiss to not point it out.

As further help. Go into training mode and record leo doing the string i mentioned, and then practice throwing him between the 3rd and 4th attack. It will be good practice for you since you have lots of leos to play against. Also, this kind of training against specific characters are how top players become top players. They practice ways to beat character specific things.

Try not to come into a character forum and call people mashers though.. It isnt a good look.

[rubedo777]

I wish I could use the replay function...but I don't want to have to buy the character just to do that.

 

I'm not sure what his 6H is but is it the one where he runs/dashes at you with a slash? There seems to be two versions...one of them goes behind you I think. I really don't know because I don't have the character to test him out.

 

Edit: I'm using Ramlethal and will be using Bedman sometime soon (still tinkering with him).

[TD]

6h is a slash that looks like an overhead but isnt.

 

dpless characters are going to have more trouble vs him or anyone really. especially ram with her weird meter system, needing to actually hit with swords or gold burst for any meter so it is paramount that you learn his strings or you will be very frustrated. bedman is no better than ram defense wise.

[Drake Aldan]

Oh, hey you, what's up?

 

It depends on what exactly you've been facing against Leo (I can't speak for all Leo players...)

Here's the frame data: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Leo_Frame_Data_%28GGXRD%29

 

From what I've seen with people playing against me, you need to:

 

- recognize 6H http://cdn.wiki.4gamer.net/files/attachment/000/022/699/upload.jpg

- throw 6H in blockstrings, backdash it, blitz shield it, etc.

- know you're playing a dice game when Leo turns his back- his P and K from stance are throw invulnerable but his parry/shield is not (but is invulnerable to everything else!)

- his running crossup (236H) can be thrown. you can even mash 4SH (faultless defense) for a FD OS throw

 

I wish I could use the replay function...but I don't want to have to buy the character just to do that.

 

You really should, I did it with Margaret in P4AU... PS3 version was like... $10 less than normal, so... just consider Leo (and maybe some DLC) that part of the full game.