[Xrd] Leo Whitefang General Discussion

[IptMcArthur]

not sure if this is the right place to post this but.. my friend got the 3 DLC chars by buying them (then installed) but Leo has some sort of lock symbol on the char select screen ? is this a known bug or should something be done first? Thanks

[DarkZero197]

 

That last hit that you're doing is called an OTG (off the ground hit). They can tech it and hit you out of your fireball. I don't think you even get to the point where the fireball stays out when you YRC before they can hit you. The 2K does barely any damage, anyway, so just do the fireball YRC right after you hit the third rekka without doing an OTG.

 

Also, this is not a vortex because of Tension gain penalties. Basically, because you did the YRC, you hardly gain any meter from any immediate followup combo that you do. So you cannot do this infinitely. I'm not saying that you shouldn't do the YRC fireball (I'm thinking you totally should most times), but just remember that you're sacrificing 25% meter plus any additional meter you would have gotten with another setup.

Kinda started to figure that, but it's still usable against people without MU knowledge,

I was put in a situation where I randomly acquired enough meter to do it again

I probably went for a BT reset or something like that, but yeah, I was sad when I found out my setup is kinda not worth it, mind you I am coming from SF, any bit of tech I could find was hype for me

And I spent like an hour In the training mode just trying it thinking it was cool, little did I know about the tension penalty or anything

[zankoku]

I feel like this sort of information is better in some sort of strategy guide (you can incorporate other things into it too), or better, the wiki.

This might justify the creation of a strategy discussion thread, at least, so we can work out what things to write down in the wiki.

[tolore]

I found a strangeness in leos frame data

 

Stance > S 28  ??  ?? - 4 All SR 6 6 15 +2

 

 

Why is that +2 using the math of every other move it has 6 active + 15 recovery = 20 frames, which means as a level 4 move it would have to block stun for 22 frames not 18. it DOES work out if you assume recovery begins on the first frame after the hit takes place, but that's not really how moves usually work. I was trying to find out, what if any gap is between bt.s->bt.h on block.

[UYG_Ookami]

A Guide would be awesome for guys like me who are new to leo and guilty gear as a whole

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[RentalBlackout]

I found a strangeness in leos frame data

 

Stance > S 28  ??  ?? - 4 All SR 6 6 15 +2

 

 

Why is that +2 using the math of every other move it has 6 active + 15 recovery = 20 frames, which means as a level 4 move it would have to block stun for 22 frames not 18. it DOES work out if you assume recovery begins on the first frame after the hit takes place, but that's not really how moves usually work. I was trying to find out, what if any gap is between bt.s->bt.h on block.

It was +2 in the japanese frame data that was linked a while ago, but you are right, it should be -2, instead of +2, at least, according to the data given anyway. Maybe the author made a typo of some sort.

However, it shouldn't change the fact that there is no gap between bt. S>bt. H if you gatling/chain it immediately.

[Villainous]

Assuming you wanna go for the 2K otg after rekkas in the corner you can do S fireball YRC to catch them in the air and go for an air unblockable. Also I believe 2K into 236HS works to catch them in the air, not sure if mashing jP beats it or not but it does hit them in the air when they tech. 

I personally like 5K 2S a lot since 2S is +4 on block and low. You can do 5K 2S over and over for days, if you get pushed out you can just do a tiny dash before 5K and get right back in point blank. 5K is cancelable to dust and dust is safe on block so you actually have a semi valid mixup just off 5K. 5K 2S 2P 5K cS 5H rekkas works as well on hit. 


Regarding matchups, how do you guys handle zoners / people with big buttons? Ky, Axl, and to a lesser degree Faust all seem like pretty hard matchups to me. I just feel like I have to guess 236HS to get in against them most of the time. 

Oh also, if you RC something that leaves them airborne in the corner you can do 6[H] BT S 214S and then link a 2P or 5P afterwards into an air combo. Pretty nice off throw or a short combo into rekkas. 

[zankoku]

It was +2 in the japanese frame data that was linked a while ago, but you are right, it should be -2, instead of +2, at least, according to the data given anyway. Maybe the author made a typo of some sort.

However, it shouldn't change the fact that there is no gap between bt. S>bt. H if you gatling/chain it immediately.

I believe that this is where the 6f special hitstop comes into play - it seems bt.S is actually a point blank projectile, and thus the opponent is individually affected by that hitstop.

[Dime_x]

So ive put more thoughts into leo now. Ill try to make a long post short(er):

Having no actual good leos to watch, ive decided that leo is a bit of a cross between pot and.... For better or worse, sol. Just as far as neutral is concerned. Hes like pot in that leo has the second most effective hp in the game after pot (618 for leo 657 for pot, 486 for chipp at the lowest) the nu,bers arent an exact science and i didnt work them out and there are other factors such as not always getting the full amount of guts out of your hp bar, but i digress, leo is given hp somewhat close to the slowest character in the game. So... Looking at pot matches and seeing how his big ass gets around, he does alot of... Letting his opponent come towards. Him, leo seems to be at least a it like that. In my offline matches i found my ability to do what i want, to be better if i simply stayed out more often than not and allowed my opponent to hang themselves... Because simply put, leo, like pot, cant keep up with speedsters like chipp or millia. Alot of what i do i is to pressure them as they land. And leo actually has good tools for that such as his H vacuuming the opponent in, and his f.S giving jump cancel pressure. Another thing that pot does, or at least fabs pot does is he always walks forward... Of course he has no dash, so walking forward is his best option in many respects but it also has the caveat of building good amounts of meter.

So, having explained that, my new style of leo is based on 5K>5c.S mixups:

5K>c.S then:

1. Jc j.K>j.H

2. 6K

3.f.S

4. Delay f.S>rekka 1>f.S>rekka 1(hitconfirm any Ch f.S>rekka 1 into rekka 2,3)

When the opponent gets used to 5K>c.S stuff switch it up to 5K>2S>2D to catch them low and then either RRC on block or hit, or go for oki on hit. If they respect the 2D then stopping at 2S and do delayed f.s with frame advantage from for a CH setup.

Neutral with opponent landing from air BS on improperly spaced jumpins against leo backdash/forward dashes:

1. 5H>rekka 1 confirm

2. 5H>6H (ch confirm into rekkas)

3. 5S>jc

4. 5S>6H

5. 5S>rekka 1

About 5S>rekka 1:

Cant be punished with pressure from many jabs if 5S done from near max range.

I dont think any of these patterns are GREAT on their own, im more looking for an overarching string theory... Lol. That allows me to give pressure as much as possible while also allowing for hitconfirms.

This just in:

Ive read most of the thread, but i dont think ove seen this anywhere and this DEFINITELY GIVES LEOS NEUTRAL ANOTHER DIMENSION:

S>H>6H all gatlings on wiff!

What this means is that at neutral, leo can protect his wiffs by gatling them into the further ranged next highest attack... So basically. If leo wants to dash in and do 5S, he can, but if he wiffs he can OS gatling buffer H so that if the opponent was barely missed, the H will make contact, and also,if the opponent wants to try and wiff punish the S into their own pressure, they will be eating an H for their troubles.

Idk how many characters can wiff gatlings besides leo and ram, but leos wiffed gatlings have mucho range... So this is just another dimension to his neutral game mixups that he can play.

[Kikuichimonji]

I believe that this is where the 6f special hitstop comes into play - it seems bt.S is actually a point blank projectile, and thus the opponent is individually affected by that hitstop.

It's not a projectile, otherwise Blitz Shield wouldn't counter Leo. See Slayer's Helter Skelter for an example of a move that looks like an attack but is a projectile. There are just moves with special hitstop and hitstun in GG that defy the rules.

 

bt.S definitely is plus. I tested Leo vs Leo, and recorded the string bt.S > bt.K. The defending Leo did a reversal 2P after the bt.S and traded with the bt.K both times. That means that bt.S was at least +1.

 

 

This just in:

Ive read most of the thread, but i dont think ove seen this anywhere and this DEFINITELY GIVES LEOS NEUTRAL ANOTHER DIMENSION:

S>H>6H all gatlings on wiff!

What this means is that at neutral, leo can protect his wiffs by gatling them into the further ranged next highest attack... So basically. If leo wants to dash in and do 5S, he can, but if he wiffs he can OS gatling buffer H so that if the opponent was barely missed, the H will make contact, and also,if the opponent wants to try and wiff punish the S into their own pressure, they will be eating an H for their troubles.

Idk how many characters can wiff gatlings besides leo and ram, but leos wiffed gatlings have mucho range... So this is just another dimension to his neutral game mixups that he can play.

Yeah I noticed that too. It's actually listed in his frame data. But remember that Leo's H buttons all have lots of startup. whiff f.S > 5HS definitely has less of a gap than just doing f.S and stopping, but it's not a small gap by any measure. Worse, any hit will be a counter-hit. It's better to use Leo's guard point on his moves to make them safe.

[Dime_x]

It's better to use Leo's guard point on his moves to make them safe.

His guard point is extremely unsafe its active for 77 frames and has 14 frames of recovery. Thats a second and a half for the opponent to run in and throw leo at their leisure or at the very least, run in and get guaranteed pressure if they were really really slow.

I think its more prudent to see how the opponent is dealing with leos ground pokes and go from there. If they are able to consistently wiff punish f.S on reaction then id say that going for P guardpoint is the best possible thing, but if they are running in and pressuring the wiff, then wiff canceling into 5H is probably the best option. The thing is...most opponents are not going to be able to wiff punish it on reaction with any sort of consistency. Most people will try to pressure the wiff, which is why the f.S>5H gatling will more than likely be best to start with. From there leo can choose what followup he wants to do depending on how his opponent is likely to respond.

Also, i dont think this is just for protecting oneself on reaction i think its there to protect via option select. Leo can do f.S>236P>5H or 6H and if the moves make contact then the rekka comes out and since its spaced far leo is basically safe. If the f.S wiffs however, then 5H will option select and come out. Its a way to do 2 basic things really:

1. Protect your f.S on wiff from people that want to run in on you

2. f.S done to purposefully wiff from a closish range into 5H. To protect 5H FROM being used to close to dash in f.S from other characters... In other words the f.S becomes a screen check.

Im nowhere near saying that it is unbeatable, but before i knew this i had to be more defensive with my buttons whereas this will allow me a bit more breathing room for my grounded footsies should they wiff.

One more thing:

The wiki does state that f.S can wiff gatling into 5H but it doesnt state that it can also wiff into 6H, nor that 5H can wiff into 6H... At least as of this post.

[LockedAndClush]

Some broken Burst-eating stuff happened when I was playing yesterday. I haven't seen it mentioned, but it's hella fun when it happens.

After hitting with a Dust with jump followup hit with 236HS immediately. What happens is, your enemy Bursts after the first hit, but misses, since you're already out of range. Then right after they lose their Burst, they get teleported to the ground and hit with the ground part of Siegesparade. So you both take their Burst and get your BT game on.

Judging by the looks of it, it's a bug likely to be patched. Still, it's worth trying for the look on their face.

[UYG_Ookami]

What use would Leo's flash kick serve in a actual fight. I'm having trouble implementing it in my play style. I can fit a few projectiles in but even that is kinda awkward for me. Any tips?

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[TD]

its mostly a reversal and rarely an anti air. use it on wakeup in situations where you feel the foe will commit to an attack. be aware of safejumps and other reversal safe strats though. have 50 meter to rrc on block, or a burst if you whiffed the attack. try not to whiff this move if at all possible.

 

use while blocking in normal situations as well, just be aware of it's short horizontal range. try to use on foes that are point blank or only slightly farther back.

 

decently fast with a good vertical hitbox and invul to anti air high up foes. again, try to HIT with it otherwise do something safer.

 

if you whiff or dont have meter, you better hope you have a burst or you're dead.

[UYG_Ookami]

I really only use it when I have no other options. I usually go with his projectile when I'm trying to stay patient. What I've noticed online is this: people get trapped when you time

Your pokes right. The average players aren't used to a patient play style because of the very nature of the game. I had some one tell me on here the other day that one could afford to be patient while playing leo so I tested it out and I feel that switching up between a very poke heavy playstyle and a rush down centered playstyle is ideal as his mix up game is decent. If that makes any sense ( this is my own personal analysis)

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[Dime_x]

Moar leo string stuffs... Im starting to figure this guy out as far as offense is concerned.

Leo can stagger this entire string:

5S>5H>6H>rekka 1,2,3

Which means after any of these moves he has mindgame feints, and even if he were somehow to get the entire string off in a staggered fashion, he can still rc at the end. But that isnt the point, the point is that that above string can be used as different combo parts in other strings for counterhit, and yet still have a fall back option on many parts if his first counterhit attempt were blocked and he fears retaliation. Anywho thats just the basic theory, on to the actual good stuff:

Leos primary string seems to be 5K>c.S>6K

After that, leo is plus 4 from a decent range away. Thats actually a VERY good thing for leo because it sets up a "bnb" further pokestring point that happens to go into many different options:

5K>c.S>6K on hit go into rekkas and oki set play, on block do:

5f.S>5H>rekka 1 if leo has enough to rc here then he should and take his "free" high/low mixup of 5D or 2K>2S confirm into sweep or on block since 2S is positive you can go for pressure or a CH. Note that if your opponent actually blocks all of this their risc meter is screaming.

There is a 6 frame gap between the 6K and the f.S. Few light attacks in the game will reach though, so if the opponents wants to attempt an interrupt here they are generally going to need meter. But any f.S or light attack should lose and get CH and then the whole series combos into rekkas. If they block up to the first rekka they have approximately 45% risc... Not enough to counterhit, BUT! If instead of canceling at the first rekka you instead cancel at the 3rd rekka and then run a mixup, the first hit WILL be a CH, unless they block correctly of course.

What this means in a nutshell:

Leo gets crazy good pressure with meter and long ass blockstrings without meter. Leo can end every blockstring at either plus 4 or minus 1 with no meter and be crazy advantaged with 2 meters.

Bonus gold burst setup:

Anything i to blocked rekka 1 or backturned rekka 2> gold burst. You now have 3/4 of your burst meter refilling and 4 meters to play with.

Not necessarily something to go for in the beginning of a round, more for 3rd round comebacks after youve built no meter from getting your ass wooped. Because at that time killing power rather than not dying power, is more needed. Not dying will just prolong the inevitable.

[Shadow Ninja 64]

What use would Leo's flash kick serve in a actual fight. I'm having trouble implementing it in my play style. I can fit a few projectiles in but even that is kinda awkward for me. Any tips?

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With 50 meter for the RC, [2]8H(2 hits) sets you up to solid damage on any successful reversal flash kick. More importantly, [2]8H(2) RC is Leo's best damage in hitconfirm combos that go into 5H or into a close enough BT S, trumping Rekkas RC and BT 214S RC options. Combos into flash kick also provide solid carry in one direction, something that Rekkas cannot do due to the crossover thing they do.

[Drake Aldan]

There is a 6 frame gap between the 6K and the f.S. Few light attacks in the game will reach though, so if the opponents wants to attempt an interrupt here they are generally going to need meter. But any f.S or light attack should lose and get CH and then the whole series combos into rekkas.

 

Am I timing this wrong?

Ky, Sol, I-No, Slayer (2P), May, Leo, maybe more... will trade with fS.

 

http://youtu.be/Gsz59hbVpl8

 

Some 6Ps may beat it entirely (I haven't thoroughly checked, Sol's is one.)

 

fS has a bad hurtbox, and trading with it is not as good as trading with 5H...

 

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5f.S>5H>rekka 1 if leo has enough to rc here then he should and take his "free" high/low mixup of 5D or 2K>2S confirm into sweep or on block since 2S is positive you can go for pressure or a CH.

 

This seems pretty good (speaking of which, I do j236H RC on block to make it safe often, since the fastfall catches a lot of people off guard...)

I think you would be better served by ticking into it with 5K first (i.e. 5K > 5D or 5K > 2S > confirm into 2D). When the screen darkens due to the RC it makes the red glow of the Dust more obvious.

[Uncivilized Elk]

So for now, Leo has become my primary main. I have the most fun with him.

But question, does anybody else happen to hate Leo's 6P? Personal bias, but I like my 6Ps with slow-ish start-up and having long lasting active frames. Leo's fast 6P ends up being the death of me every time I try to use it and I cannot for the life of me properly AA with it. Any tips?

[Dime_x]

Am I timing this wrong?

Well, glad to spark some discussion in this forum... Its the reason why i post things like the string we are talking about... To get discussion going. I mean i cant take credit for finding the string since its extremly obvious and something every leo will find in time, im just trying to get discussion gojng on its ramifications.

Ok so, i retested a recording against the characters that you mention and yes it seems to be your timing. None of the characters i just tested including ky,sol,chipp could interrupt the f.S

However, in my recording from yesterday where i tested against chipp, he could trade with his f.S. I assumed it was just shitty timing on my part and todays better timed recording just confirmed this.

Ok so having said that, though i found all these yesterday.. I consider them to be obvious so i didnt mention them.. But ill do so now for sakes of completeness.

Ways to beat the f.S:

Both fortunately and unfortunately the ways to beat this pattern are numerous.

1. You can IB the 6K and then do whatever (f.S seems to work for most characters)

2. You can regular jump out (will still get hit but in most cases you should be able to tech i think)

3. You can FD jump out "1 frame jump" (completely gets out of the way and even allows a punish against leos wiffed f.S)

4. Some characters 6P will avoid leos f.S

5. Reversals in general

6. Backdash ( no timing really needed, its basically a free out).

I guess you could consider the backdash and a reversal near the same thing though.

And there are probably more, but thats not the strength of the pattern, the strength is that we have another patterned option for the opponent to look out for, and more stuff to look out for means that our original threat of gatling into 6H becomes more of a threat.

[Drake Aldan]

Ok so, i retested a recording against the characters that you mention and yes it seems to be your timing. None of the characters i just tested including ky,sol,chipp could interrupt the f.S

However, in my recording from yesterday where i tested against chipp, he could trade with his f.S. I assumed it was just shitty timing on my part and todays better timed recording just confirmed this.

 

Wait, are you using 5P to check interrupts, or fS?

 

If it's 5P, I just can't seem to catch the timing for that.

 

(Chipp seems to be boned hitbox-wise on his 5P/2P, strangely enough... but it works with his 5K?)

[Drake Aldan]

Assuming that 5P trades with fS, you can sub in 5H, which will cause the opponent to whiff, and you'll whiff punish them for trying to interrupt you.

 

If 5P doesn't trade with fS then I need to git gud...

 

 

Someone like Zato with his long-ass 5P might be able to shut down the whole thing... How would you get him to stop? I'm having a hard time of thinking up good deterrents...

[Dime_x]

In my recording from yesterday chipps 5K was getting countered, in the quicker recording from today it is trading however. I believe this means there are hitbox issues.

I test against f.S because at that range is where most characters are going to be able to try and attack leo (most P and K attacks will obviously wiff)

Chipp and faust are the only characters that i know of that can easily trade or interrupt this. Faust can interrupt with 2P and trade with 5P chipp can trade with 5K.

-edit and zato 5P trades. A theory fighter answer is to just sweep them as long as the sweep trades its a huge trade in favor of leo -edit 2 yes the sweep trades against zatos 5P giving leo free oki.

In these situations, leo has more health pool than either character and the move he is trading with does more damage. So the trade is in his favor on those merits, but in terms of returning to neutral its probably not in his favor. Getting countered by fausts 2P certainly isnt a good look either.

But i mean the poitn of this string inst really to break it down into charater specifics... Whos to say the faust player will figure it out? And everyone else will come up with there own specific ways to beat it... I think its up to the leo player to adjust to his opponent. This string does seem to force the opposing characters into a much more defensive or technical mindstate. Like if the opponent starts to IB the 6K, leo can either dash in while the opponent is trying to IB, or he can jump cancel the c.S instead of gatling into 6K... Just you know, leo has options at that point because he isnt far into his string yet. Its deep in strings that leos options tend to suffer.

Also also:

Ive started to think of 6H and 5H as gap closers. 5H because it vacuums and 6H because it moves forward with frame advantage.

5H should probably always be canceled into rekka 1 when done raw, for the confirm. Up until the opponent starts to IB the rekka at which point it might be prudent to start doing 5H>6H to throw off the IB timing.

@uncivilized elk

I dont like 6P much either. I got used to GG style 6P attacks from the OG BB arakune C (tongue attack) it was extremely slow and lots of active frames and it launched on hit... It was an amazing AA because of the upper body invulnerable parts. Leos 6P seems to need for the opponent to be REALLY deep because of its bad actives, but when deep, the opponent can start to interact with waist vulnerability within their jump attack... I guess... Eityer way i was struggling to use it as well.

[thugnificent]

Does anyone have any good combos off of parry in the corner?

[Drake Aldan]

Does anyone have any good combos off of parry in the corner?

 

I just use BT 214H combos (BT 214H, 5K > cS > air combo).

 

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If you use 236H to approach... Is it pragmatic to always block if you whiff (especially if the opponent is grounded)? 13f recovery, obvious startup...

 

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How about using dash 5K > cS as a standalone stagger string? I saw Jiyuna doing 5K > cS > rekkas. In training it seems very confirmable (I don't need to rely on sound cues to hit it).

 

cS is +2 on block which is just... OK, but cS is jump cancelable (seems like leading with jK > jS or jK > j236H for risk is good. Or, you could empty jump throw, or back jump airdash forward, or...).

 

And you can still do 6K, infinite blockstring, 2D, dash FD brake throw, etc...

 

I wonder what the merits are of dash 5K > cS vs dash 5K > 2S.

 

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Apparently, dash 5K, walk forward throw is a thing. A little more inconspicuous than dash FD.

 

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For my own reference... in 5K > cS > 5H > 6H, you can insert dash FD brake throw after 6H and after 5K.