Destin Posted December 29, 2014 Posted December 29, 2014 Game design is an artistic choice as well. Having different reversal times affects the feel of the game. SF4 feels sloppy. Moves are coming out that I feel I am not even doing, or attempting. Guilty gear feels tight, and with that comes an added difficulty. I am personally very happy with a game that feels tight over easy. (sounds like a type of egg, tight over easy) 2F windows become easy. They really do, and I NEVER grinded in training mode. You just need to play enough.
Spoony Posted December 31, 2014 Posted December 31, 2014 But in ST there's a trick to get reversals easier, for example can do 623LP~MP~HP which gives you 6 DP inputs, so the 1f window doesn't matter as much, but ST also has others factors like the speed of the game that varies a little in some stages to make things harder. Anyway I actually use the multiple buttons presses with Sol when I go for a reversal VV in Xrd, like in ST, I don't care which one gets out as long as it does, both have strong invuln frames and will work as well in most situations. But sadly all characters can't do that, especially if your reversal is an overdrive. Now for the bad "design thing", I can understand why some people would think this, I mean what's the point of easing one fundamental system to make Xrd more accessible and at the same time making one other even harder than before? Maybe they wanted everyone to have a chance to enjoy GG one player game side by not having them to worry too much about getting DPed out of their oki? Actually, if you want to get a specific reversal (Like you might for Ken) because of negative edge ST reversals have exactly the same leniency as Xrd, since Double tapping gives you four possible frames in both. And four frames is Enough.
Vowtz Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 Making a core mechanic like waking up on reversals hard for beginners is unintelligent. What's the point in forcing most players to eat a combo they already predicted? The message it leaves is "This game does not care if you had the correct answer to the problem, but only if you worked hard and spent you weekend training." I want my game to be FUN, not to spend my free time on training mode to do some basic stuff.
Red Star Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 Making a core mechanic like waking up on reversals hard for beginners is unintelligent. What's the point in forcing most players to eat a combo they already predicted? The message it leaves is "This game does not care if you had the correct answer to the problem, but only if you worked hard and spent you weekend training." I want my game to be FUN, not to spend my free time on training mode to do some basic stuff. The game doesn't force most player to eat a combo they already predicted. Most players know that if you hold back then your character blocks the attack on wake up.
StylisH Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 There's absolutely nothing wrong with blocking on wakeup. Except eating a mixup. Then you're fucked.
Vowtz Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 There's absolutely nothing wrong with blocking on wakeup. Except eating a mixup. Then you're fucked. Exactly! When your opponent mixes you up he will build tons of tension and keep up the pressure, getting your RISC UP, it is impossible for you to make the correct high/low guess every single time, meaning that when you finally get hit the damage is huge. And you already knew the guy would come swinging on your wake up! this kind of mindless offense should eat a reversal! You can say "Then go waste your life on training mode and you can do it" Well, like most people I want to Have FUN with my GAME, not work.
Sanger Zonvolt Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 That's the beauty of fighting games though, so much variety for different kinds of people. Persona can give you exactly what you desire.
Nyaa Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 Vowtz, are you saying there shouldn't be an advantage to the player who scores a knockdown? Block the mixup and get out of there and reset the situation to neutral. Often you can also backdash on wakeup as well which isn't too bad as all backdashes are invincible for a while. Or you can throw as well if you know your opponent will mindlessly go in. Throws on wakeup beat anything in this game unless the move is throw invincible.
Vowtz Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 Vowtz, are you saying there shouldn't be an advantage to the player who scores a knockdown? Block the mixup and get out of there and reset the situation to neutral. Often you can also backdash on wakeup as well which isn't too bad as all backdashes are invincible for a while. Or you can throw as well if you know your opponent will mindlessly go in. Throws on wakeup beat anything in this game unless the move is throw invincible. Chances are you will miss your wake up backdash as often as a wake up shory. And everyone with a little experience in fighting games will not get in your throw range on wake up while mixing you up. A knockdown has a lot of advantages already, specially in a rushdown oriented game like GG, where you gain tension just by walking forward. And if you miss a reversal there is plenty of punishment waiting. Like everyone already said, if you train enough, wake up on reversals is easy, this means you are just forcing players to engage in repetitive training and making casual players frustrated. That's the beauty of fighting games though, so much variety for different kinds of people. Persona can give you exactly what you desire. There are other games that have very easy wake up reversals and are more enjoyable, like GUILTY GEAR X and GUILTY GEAR XX, for example. There is no reason to change this. I'm advocating here more for my friends than for myself, as I am slowly getting used to wake up on reversals in this strict timing and without negative edge. Some of my friends on the other hand are not already fighting games entusiastics, and I want them to enjoy playing. For them, being unable to react to some repetitive combos on wakeup removes a lot of their fun. This small wake up buffer is terrible, for high level play it makes no difference, since "pros" can already wake up on reversals every time. For beginners the difference is huge, and the way it is right now it sucks. An there is online play, having 2f precision windows with lag makes no sense.
Sanger Zonvolt Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 I'm advocating here more for my friends than for myself, as I am slowly getting used to wake up on reversals in this strict timing and without negative edge. Some of my friends on the other hand are not already fighting games entusiastics, and I want them to enjoy playing. For them, being unable to react to some repetitive combos on wakeup removes a lot of their fun. This small wake up buffer is terrible, for high level play it makes no difference, since "pros" can already wake up on reversals every time. For beginners the difference is huge, and the way it is right now it sucks. An there is online play, having 2f precision windows with lag makes no sense. That's why I highly suggest Persona if your friends are struggling with Xrd in general, as there is no input buffer in Xrd which makes it a strict and precise game, while Persona is extremely lenient.
Vowtz Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 Following your suggestion I watched some videos of this "Persona". At first I thought it was Mugen, then, after watching some more videos it seemed to me like those "melty blood" types of games. Maybe I will try it sometime, but for now my focus in on my favorite franchise for over a decade, and since developers already made a lot of improvements to make Guilty Gear more accessible for beginners like easy and "time stopping" roman cancels and no FRC "super precision", there is no point in making wake up game even more strict for who is recovering. I'm hoping they will patch negative edge in again, so this problem should disappear.
Kumlekar Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 Honestly I think BD wouldnt be a terrible option, You can mash it like all the pros suggest lol. But honestly on a char with a great backdash like Sin it seems like a legitimate option. I wish backdash were a realistic option for axl... Why are we defending a higher execution barrier for what seems to be a basic tactic? It just seems like a way of hiding the mindgames seen at higher level play from new players. Is this a good thing?
Vowtz Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 I wish backdash were a realistic option for axl... Why are we defending a higher execution barrier for what seems to be a basic tactic? It just seems like a way of hiding the mindgames seen at higher level play from new players. Is this a good thing? Yep, you are right! Patch it NOW, arc sys!!! GO GO reversals!
Tofma Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 Now that we agree on reversal windows needing to be bigger. They should also remove IB and adjust all frame data as if you we're IB'ing everything. It just fucks up newbies because they can't escape pressure just because they didn't spend their weekend grinding p.mode. Why should such a fundamental thing have such a execution barrier? It just seems like a way of hiding the mindgames seen at higher level play from new players. Is this a good thing?
Poultrygeist Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 Now that we agree on reversal windows needing to be bigger. They should also remove IB and adjust all frame data as if you we're IB'ing everything. It just fucks up newbies because they can't escape pressure just because they didn't spend their weekend grinding p.mode. Why should such a fundamental thing have such a execution barrier? It just seems like a way of hiding the mindgames seen at higher level play from new players. Is this a good thing? You are going to find a lot of people dislike this idea. Either that or perception of GG has changed a bit.
FinalDoomGuy Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 Difference between reversal windows and IB is that attacks can be hidden or YRC or cancelled in weird ways so there's thought also required (he'll probably cancel into a HS etc.) Reversal Windows are constant, so it's pure execution. It also means the attacker has to think less at lower levels of play since reversals are by no means consistent which kinda sucks (Defender could have to think more since they have less reliable tools depending on your point of view.) The lack of negative edge is a baffling change considering that the old GGs had it.
Tofma Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 You are going to find a lot of people dislike this idea. Either that or perception of GG has changed a bit. Obviously. It's sarcastic.
TD Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 you're already practicing combos I mean why not learn your character's wakeup timing... ib should definitely not be removed, but I can sort of agree on a slightly wider wakeup reversal window, there are quite a few interchanging variables on wakeup depending on both the characters to the point where having such strict timing on top of all the variables is a bit daunting to green horns. understandable. learning your char's wakeup timing and therefore reversal timing shouldn't take you a whole weekend, but if you seriously cannot get it, don't beat yourself up (because the foe is already doing that); just keep blocking until you can figure out how to escape the pressure. just as you can't block the high low every single time, even if you dp, it doesn't mean you will get that to hit either (and doing this and losing is suicide risk/low to medium reward in most cases.) and remember there is nothing wrong with losing for the sake of learning something new or trying something risky. unless you're in a tournament. then you should feel ashamed.
Sanger Zonvolt Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 https://twitter.com/hc0519/status/562907534823264257 Good news for those who have been struggling.
StylisH Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 Now that we agree on reversal windows needing to be bigger. They should also remove IB and adjust all frame data as if you we're IB'ing everything. It just fucks up newbies because they can't escape pressure just because they didn't spend their weekend grinding p.mode. Why should such a fundamental thing have such a execution barrier? It just seems like a way of hiding the mindgames seen at higher level play from new players. Is this a good thing? What
Renegade Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 Before this game, the hardest game to reversal in was Super Turbo. Even then, you can use piano method, double tap, and negative edge to get up to 6 possible shots at the 1f window for reversals. I get them over 80% of the time. This game? Even w twice the window (2f), with my character (sin) you only have one button to hit, and no negative edge. It's infuriating to lose when you can't hit a reversal but 10% of the time, your opponent doesn't have to respect your wakeup at all, and just does brain dead projectile oki all day.
D.R.F. Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 Uhhh don't take out IB. Pleaaase don't take IB. You are badshit crazy for wantung to remove IB. Also I like the reversal window, personally. Negative edge would be nice though
Vowtz Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 https://twitter.com/hc0519/status/562907534823264257 Good news for those who have been struggling. Niiiice!Before this game, the hardest game to reversal in was Super Turbo. Even then, you can use piano method, double tap, and negative edge to get up to 6 possible shots at the 1f window for reversals. I get them over 80% of the time. This game? Even w twice the window (2f), with my character (sin) you only have one button to hit, and no negative edge. It's infuriating to lose when you can't hit a reversal but 10% of the time, your opponent doesn't have to respect your wakeup at all, and just does brain dead projectile oki all day. Thats exactly what happens, in an online game, no one respects a downed Sol on wakeup, how can anyone do reversals on wakeup with lag frames in between? Then comes a lot of Millias, I-Nos, Zatos kicking your ass because you can't wake up right. When will this "patch 1.1" come to consoles?
Red Star Posted February 4, 2015 Posted February 4, 2015 Then comes a lot of Millias, I-Nos, Zatos kicking your ass because you can't wake up right. When will this "patch 1.1" come to consoles? Those characters don't respect your wake up because they don't have to respect it. Most of their oki is reversal safe.
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