Ice Cube

Jin's 3C has always been techable if it's an air hit. So the change probably means techable on ground hit.

No more OTG combos after 3C. New sekkajin makes up for this. 3C > 236D for freeze oki in corner would no longer works. Well, it didn't work on the whole cast and was quite react-able anyway. And most of the time it comes from a corner throw. With the new proration on 6 throw, Jin should have new damaging combos that end with 6C > 214C knockdown, so yeah. 3C > 236C oki would be easily reversal'd out. Actually, since 236C is -1 on block, this has just become a terrible idea. 214B knockdown kinda makes up for it though. It only has 5 + 22 recovery, compared to 2 + 29 of 3C, adds a little bit of damage + floats the opponent a bit higher before knockdown. So 3C > 214B should become the new knockdown option. Outside of combos, Jin gains much less rewards for using 3C to trap jump-outs or to beat Bang's 5A. Not much of a problem with the new 5C. Personally I'm fine with this.

I would be surprised if they won't add a couple of head invincible frames. Even without that, it's 10 frame startup. If people air barrier block it, it's -3, you can also jump cancel for air blockstring to pull them back to ground. You can even do it twice in a blockstring, with a 2C in between to boot. Seriously it will become a damn good trap tool.

Ragna 5C > 2C whiff cancel is -8 (-12 with 2C whiff cancel), 12 startup. Haku-men 4C is -5, 15 startup. Litchi 6B[m] is -7, 17 startup. New Jin 5D, from whatever info available, should be -9, 15 startup. So, how are the first three not useful? Currently both of 5D and 2D have both 22 frame start up. How does switching to 2D help? My point being: you may just want to try thinking a little bit before you post. No offense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FMhLlalZZI#t=0m24s Front throw (2) > sekkajin, 6C > 2D, 6B, 5B > 2B > 5C > 3C is 2323 Front throw (3) > 214A (whiff) > 5B > 2B > 5C > 3C is 2541 (same vid at 1:53) So better front throw proration on 3rd hit (currently 70p2). That's even higher damage than the current corner throw combo. Too good.

Link please. It's understandable though. 5D comboable from 5C would mean it has 15 frame start-up or less, which is as good as Hakumen's 4C. Together with 8 active frames, being mostly safe (except for dash cancelling it on IB), adding comboability would make it too godlike. It's fine as long as it's still combo on CH. The oki idea is very interesting. I would guess 5D's new freeze time to be 25 frames (30 would make it combo-able while 20 is plain silly), which leaves Jin at +3 after dash cancel (same as gadget finger). Too good. Overall I like the new direction arcsys is taking with 5D. Jin now (and hopefully, in the final version) has both solid ground-to-ground and air-to-air pokes which combos on CH (both of which, thank god, does not extend his hitbox). Together with other minor buffs, I can see him rising above mid-tier already.

I don't have any match-up experience so I should not be allowed to even talk, but this is

If Jin do 5C oki and the opponent neutral tech, will Jin's 2A still beat opponent's 2A?

B ice car as combo ender in the air is pretty safe, as ground combo ender is -3 (LOL) so safe (fastest attack in game is 5 frame). I assume your talking about j.D. If you're using non-freeze j.D as combo ender, your combo obviously got lots of problem. Anw j.D doesn't have landing recovery so it's safe. Or you can always throw D ice sword to beat punish attempt.

After gadget finger (I should have asked which of Tager's option would beat TK ice sword, sorry for that). Dunno why, it just seems kind of good. Throw invul (airborne), has a weird trajectory so maybe can escape Atomic Collider? Make Tager block if he normal jump, dunno if same applies to super jump but anyway the recovery is not too bad? I never see a Tager sledge after gadget finger before. Will probably be beaten by 5A but then again 5A air hit is pretty lol. Trade with 5D maybe? I don't have evidence for any of this though, so feedback from a Tager player would be nice.

Jin can j.236B to bait 2C happy Tager for free CH into combo.

Jin's total recovery is 5+25 = 30 frames, emergency tech is 32 frames, the problem is the time between the hitstop and opponent touching ground. I can only tell it's around 4~8 frames from match vids. Which would gives Jin frame advantage around 6~10 frames. Is there anyway to tell the exact number though.

This is pure theory fighting, but how would a Tager react to a TK ice sword?

Question: How much frame advantage does Jin have after corner 6C > 214C if the opponent do emergency tech? Exact number if possible.

new gameacho has some hot Jin action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwpNQd42ZRk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEue4FtAd6g (the next parts are basically a Litchi & Bang fest) From vid: run forward, instant air back dash > j.236D looks like a good tool to bait + punish reversals. Can anyone help to test which reversal can go through it? I'm guessing magnetized magna-tech wheel, both yukikaze, daifunka, inferno divider (I really hope not), Jin's D super. fenrir, Carl's gear super, calamity sword and steel rain may possibly destroy all the 3 projectiles as well. The more wrong I am the better.

Something I noticed: after midscreen oki with 2A cross-under, if you do 5B, 2nd hit will always whiff Litchi. Do 5B(1) > 3C, 2B > 5C (HJC) ... instead. 5B is not good for hitconfirming against Litchi: her crouching hitbox is so damn small, there's a good chance that 5B's first hit will whiff and it won't combo For anti-air, 2A beat j.C[m] but lose to both j.B whole day, no matter my positioning, need some tips. j.A does the job quite well for me, 5C also but need to be right under her. If Litchi doesn't have her stick and you are at neutral, you still need to be careful with your approach, her rekka, though unsafe, has scary priority to punish people who charge in blindly. Once it's close range just do whatever. Punish a blocked 623D[m] with 5B(1) or 5C. Counter hit most of the time. 623D[m] also does not cover the area right above her head, so it's possible to just run at her then jump forward to bait the DP. 623C RC to get out of Daisharin oki if Litchi starts her mix-up immediately. Jin's j.C does not beat Litchi's j.C[m] consistently enough to just throw out randomly, since if you eat a CH you're already dead. Must space it damn well. Watch out for air throws. Scary shit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCBAOOXnhDY#t=1m03s very nice gimmick.

List updated with a 3C knockdown guide based on this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhUjeSdDu5w , some new 2C FC anti-air combos from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pulrMwx_GvY , and whatever new stuff which have been posted. A big thank you to teranoidG and Moi_X7 for creating awesome videos. I have also done more writing on the mix-up guide. I have a good idea on what to include for resets and freeze resets already, but totally no idea on what to include for Strike/Strike mix-up. I don't do it consciously enough, I think. Need some help.

My point was that his testing was not extensive, since it was done on an arcade setup, so there might be errors (and in fact, there were errors). There are console only characters anyway, so it may be nice to test it again on a console setup. Let's drop this here, I'm just asking for help (since I don't have my own console setup) and your posts are not helping. Once again, need someone to help test on which character does 6A > 214C (crouch) work.

I'm aware of stunedge's post. However, some stuff in stunedge's post is wrong (6A > 623B needs dash on Ragna and Noel, and it does work on Litchi). It's also written before console release, according to him. There are also new characters. So I wouldn't count on it. I still need someone to test it out.

Need someone to help test on which character does 6A > 214C (crouch) work.

My worst match-up. To me, it feels like a contest of who can position himself better. Someone who knows more can tell me though. (will update first post if something noteworthy is posted)

Anyone ever tried to do this before: (corner) IAD j.A (whiff), j.B (whiff), land 2B Looks good. j.B startup is telegraphed a lot so this might catch some people off-guard. And the j.B can actually hit for an overhead if timed correctly so it seems like a good mix-up on theory. It's kinda unsafe though, unless after a blocked ground 236D. Oh, and a few air throw combos have been added

If you mean the 6Bxx or 6Cxx, it's in the notation. I don't have xx anywhere else in my post I think, I use a "," for links. @souseta: my bad, totally forget about stunedge's post. Updated. Also updated with new 2C(FC) combos, to save the pain of choosing between 2D or dash cancel after 6C. Now it's all dash cancel combos.

If you want to do non cross-up, just delay 5C then air dash > j.2C > j.D, more damage with less meter spent and also less react-able The OTG cross-up setup is 3C, 2B > 5C (HJC) > j.B > j.C > j.D, air dash > j.236D. Quite consistent, as long as your 3C is close enough. Seems not possible to do non cross-up from it though, except if you change it a bit: 3C, 2B > 5C (HJC) > j.B > j.2C > j.D, air dash > j.2C > j.D.