Hellmonkey

Mind blown by the Baiken changes. I want to try the new one badly.

0:43 : I would for sure do a 75% combo from this youzansen, that's a ton of extra damage. (end with a j.D FRC tatami sj.D ad j.SD) No burst so one more mixup could have killed or left him with pixels to chip. 1:00 : If Dizzy is low on health and Baiken has a lead, don't iad j.S. It's easy to read. 1:06, 1:12 : Don't ouren the fish because Dizzy isn't stuck in hitstop. It's a projectile. ~2:00 : Could have killed Dizzy about a dozen times. Try to work on combos. 2:25 : Try to confirm 2S CH into tatami 2:28 : If you did 6P after kabari to burst bait good job, but you need to hold back when you jump before j.P to auto block it. 2:35: Lands a nice CH 5H in the corner against crouching. Probably could have followed up with 2K, or you can get in the habit of doing tatami or kabari when you see it come out like that. 4:58 : should be a lucky win with that 5s! Try to FRC the tatami on reaction. 5:13 : FD the fish! You have a billion meter there is no risk, you could even ouren RC from it or something. ~5:43 : TK youzansen is good here. Need to work on hit confirming in general, lots of dropped combos, not enough throw/youzansen mixup.

Challenge Accepted.

Some good ideas, thanks for the input! Interesting point about greed sever, I guess that move is pretty useless from an okizeme standpoint. Maybe they could add an FRC somewhere before or after the hit. Instead of modifying a mechanic like throw proration, maybe they should allow him to combo meterless from his throw like Millia. Having guaranteed meter after throw combos would definitely help with overall pressure and damage. You aren't doing it right. This is true for basically every character, and Ky's normals and movement are actually pretty good for this compared to most. He's a ranged projectile character so there must be some drawback on the offensive end.

This is not correct, Ky actually has some decent okizeme and pressure, but setting it up isn't obvious. I would be interested to hear from some Ky players about what specific changes they might like.

Can anyone confirm this?

The good news is that even though you might be find a lot of match videos with Baiken losing, she tends to do pretty well in GGAC at any level of play.

This is a great question, I think 6H and followup are easy choices but aside from those it's hard to pick. I think that this type of meter gain nerf would really help tone down the strength of stuff like corner 6H loop, which then leads to having FB puffball/meter available for the mix-up and combo. Bakushuu followup tension nerf would hurt her quite a bit outside of that I would imagine, I think Jam is okay from neutral right now. It's this kind of situation where the average damage is just way too high and the character gets a tension lead that I think could have some work done. Same with Slayer combos leading to mix-up and tension for DOT.

Good idea, because this meter goes to almost guaranteed damage from a very fast TK youzansen anyways so I don't think it would affect balance much, but would give Baiken another interesting way to use meter. As long as the FRC is still before the hit I don't think it will change much. The character is already heavily dependent on meter so any extra meter options you add would have to be pretty good to make a difference. It is this exact evolution of the game which has led Bridget, and the other originally 'weak' characters, to become powerhouses when used by the right person. Every character in GGAC has a lot of variation and mastering the system mechanics is just the first step to playing at a high level, it's the best part of the game.

I think Faust's unblockable grab move weird air-hit could be removed by lowering the hitbox or something. Lower the rate on zappa getting his summons after getting hit slightly, because getting dog in this situation has become way too strong, and this actually could be a buff overall because he gets to choose his summons based on time. So more skill, less randomness. I like Hecatom's earlier idea about having FB drill get rid of little eddie and deplete the eddie gauge in some way, this might be a more necessary nerf than just meter gain for Eddie. Slight meter changes should be enough for characters like testament, potemkin, jam, and slayer.

Bridget was brought up in this thread as being particularly weak (more so than the other 'weak' characters), which you wrote that you agreed with. I just want to correct this notion that Bridget alone deserves attention, when in fact the character can manage quite well at a high level. I would love some balance changes for Bridget as long as it came as a package along with the rest of the cast.

You bring up an interesting point which I recently discussed in the tier list thread, but to summarize it is well known at this point that it's impossible to accurately rank the characters in GGAC. You can read the Japanese wiki for some thoughts about it, or read the ranking thread on the BBS, or try to find a bunch of top players around Japanese arcades to observe, but I'd like to save your time and tell you the results. Character affinity and player skill outweigh any mathematical difference between the characters in GGAC by such a large margin that it is impossible to distinguish a particularly weak or strong character in the cast. For every argument you can make that a character is weak in one match-up, that exact mechanic can lead them to an advantage in another. We can only look at results to see who is really strongest in GGAC- and they have been all over the place through the evolution of the game, and will probably continue to do so because the game weighs so heavily on player skill and understanding. I hope that you can understand this perspective, because the game is actually extremely balanced despite how much complaining goes on.

All of the points I make about balance are very specifically tailored to high level play, because this is how we balance fighting games. I'm sorry if this wasn't clear. I think we are just talking about different games. I'm not saying that your average Bridget player is likely to beat your average Eddie player, anyone with any amount of experience with the game knows that isn't true. I would still take a top Bridget player on my team against just about any character if something was riding on the line though, because Bridget has unique strengths that can be very tricky to play against and this can be as valuable as any amount of damage or okizeme potential when applied correctly. I got to see a few very sick Bridget players during my time over there, who showed me a lot about the character I haven't seen in match videos anywhere. The nice thing about GGAC is that the skill cap is basically limitless. Bridget can be mastered like the rest of the cast. I am also not saying that Bridget doesn't deserve some changes to make the character easier to play. However, a direct buff to something like Bridget's damage, just because this character appears to struggle to grab damage when that isn't even the character's playstyle, is how you end up with a terribly imbalanced game. It's wrong to single this character out as weak because no character has a mechanic like the yoyo to expand their options.

I would agree and say it doesn't compensate for his flaws, until you reach a high enough level. Seriously, you have not played against a good enough Bridget if you think this can't easily destroy most characters in the cast. Strong okizeme means nothing when you can't land a solid hit.

Ah I wasn't aware he made a comeback, didn't get enough time in kansai either unfortunately. I'll try to find those videos but I still wouldn't rate Bridget just on his performance.

To understand why Bridget alone doesn't require a buff,the variation of characters in Guilty Gear must be understood. Every character plays differently, and has to aim for their specific good situations in each matchup. Because every character has such varied movement and moveset, the balance in Guilty Gear must be asymmetric. Bridget's playstyle is not getting up in your face and doing 80%. Instead, there are numerous other advantages that Bridget can enjoy over some characters like abusing good air movement for air throws or simply being able to escape a lot of situations with the extra air options. Bridget ends up having a more difficult learning curve to eek out what damage can be had, and must play a safe style to be most effective as a result. I also don't think Ruu should be mentioned because he hasn't been around for a long time, there are Bridget players who have been playing for years since then who have mastered the character. This argument is like seeing Ogawa destroy everyone with Eddie without unblockables. This doesn't give us any information about GGAC Eddie's balance.

Bridget does decent damage from my experience in Japan. I can't describe all of the character's specifics, but the character really is not that bad IMO. One thing I can remember is really good use of yo-yo 1F pullback. Bridget seems like a character with one of the hardest learning curves in the game. I just hate singling out this character as weak when Bridget has options like cancelling yoyo and using the yoyo for air movement. If we compare this difficulty to the difficulty of a character like Anji across the board, or Zappa utilizing his different summons, I think Bridget's strengths can definitely be applied.

I agree that minor nerfs can have as large of an effect as minor buffs, and that's why I'm apprehensive about too many people requesting balance changes without a completely new version. The nice thing about this change to meter gain is that the 'top 6' characters can already combo/mixup without using their meter and rack up a lot of tension doing so. All of the other characters who have to spend tension on their combos need to find their meter other ways. The difference between getting to use meter on mixup/pressure/defense and having to blow it on FRCs is huge. It's really hard for me to agree with placing Bridget into a weak category like this. I think it's just lack of exposure to really sick Bridget players due to high execution requirements. Bridget's movement and ranged options are very hard for some characters to deal with at a high level.

The only changes that I could imagine actually making would be related to meter gain. Lower the meter gain from the 'top 6' characters, specifically things like heat fist and badlands loop. As mentioned, these 'top' characters have weaknesses such as bad defense for Eddie, bad movement for Potemkin or bad range for Slayer. It's not that the other characters don't have equally good-if not better alternatives to just doing big combos, but meter opens up way too many options for everyone in GGAC and if this mechanic was modified I don't think many people would complain too much.

Another really useful trick that I don't often see written anywhere is using whiffed air normals for both okizeme and neutral play. For example, after getting a nice knockdown from a j.D in the corner try jumping in with a low j.S that whiffs on them. By adjusting the timing, you can have it hit meaty, or have it whiff and go straight into 2K/TK youzansen(throw invuln!) which cannot be reacted to. This makes them less likely to preemptively react to things like airdash j.P and land throw because they have to worry about the j.S. You can land and aim for a 6KH to throw or counterhit their mashed option select if they get used to throwing your 2K.

2D is the best low starter so yes of course I would spend the tension. You end up with way more damage with 2D tatami than anything from 2K generally because of spacing. I use it all the time, especially against characters hard to get decent damage from a 2K at range. It can whiff through some backdashes and lose you pressure, lose to quick mashing depending on if they IB and their spacing, and on block you have fewer options. Try to mix this stuff up with options like 5P youzansen, 5S youzansen, 5P throw, 5P2K throw, stuff like that. It's pretty hard to punish some backdashes so keep in mind everyone has that option. Those throws should be option selected with her different normals. You can also chain normals into 6K for some tasty counterhits, doing stuff like 5P 6K when they expect a tick throw. Baiken has some decent pressure options, especially in the corner. Related note on your earlier question about comboing May: I forgot to mention that you can use 2D j.D on her. So for example 2K>5S>2D>j.D for a meterless knockdown, or 2D j.D to start your combo after 2D/youzansen mixup. Also can be used for Faust. Strong pressure is important not just because it opens up more opportunities to hit the opponent, but the meter advantage you can gain and the guard gauge you can jack up (another reason to use 6K a lot) really help her grab damage in real matches.

Offensively, 6K and 5S (input as 6KH and 6SH) are also very useful option selects to catch throw attempts, backdashes and jumps for more damage than 6P. Gold bursts can be option selected with throw by simply pressing 4HD or 6HD on the same frame. This is great as a reversal gold burst because you don't always waste your burst to get out. Also great if you want to go for a ground or air grab late in the round and want to make sure it's safe against your opponent's mashed move, such as an option selected normal since you are at close range. Almost every character at close range has a good option that will either throw (good normals+option selecting) or beat throws (throw invulnerable/airborne/good hitbox and speed). I think this makes correctly timed 6K (this move is active for 9 frames, so you can get huge frame advantages by hitting later in the move, but the move loses throw invuln as soon as it becomes active) and neutral TK Youzansen two of Baiken's most important moves up close, especially against non-DP characters. Those threats open up all of her other standard high/low and throw/tickthrowing options.

(post edit) Use 2D>j.D on May. So I went and checked, and although 2D delay tatami sj.PD does not knock down May and Bridget, this low teching situation is not so bad for Baiken (depends on a lot of factors, like Bridget's yoyo), and Dizzy cannot tech it at all. The reason I never noticed with May is because you can actually combo her from really far with air dash j.S, and you will almost always have the meter for a j.D FRC out of the corner, so you will usually end up with her in the corner. Taking a 2D and doing a delayed jump for a mixup is pretty good. I don't see myself being in this meterless ground combo situation too much against Bridget, most likely there would be zoning of some sort until you had the meter, avoiding this situation. If you do, I guess take a 2D and watch out for starship. Kabari/tatami mats/longer range options are going to be your moves of choice for this matchup. If you're the one in the corner you can 2D and jump or airdash over and lay a mat with position or go straight into j.P/j.S/2D/land youzansen mixup. (watch out for whale and starship/yoyo delayed wakeup)

Yes, from the Baiken Guide

For Baiken's 5D combo, try this: 5D > (hold up) > j.S (right when get get off the ground), > j.S > (let go of up) > j.SD (wait here, and we will stay with them) > j.SD > airdash > j.SD. This last part is similar to her corner dust loop. You can find find a list of combos in the Baiken Guide, and I recommend learning some of those for your basic combo formulas. In general, the combo I listed or variations of it are your best choices from a 5D. Other characters can increase their 5D damage with ID, but it's not used that way often with Baiken. Air tatami FRC is most useful to create a mixup by allowing baiken to quickly airdash with an air move to mix up the opponent when they don't really expect it. Once they learn this, you can mix things up like landing and 2D, tick throwing, landing and youzansen, or much more. I think it was better in previous versions of GG, because now Baiken has better tools with her meter (youzansen mixup (+knockdown), average damage, baku)