TD

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kl2rbV2Mops This, without having to try to beat rolling out of corners. Or getting 50 meter to keep doing it... The idea is that Marie can setup very strong mixups - including throws - because she is able to completely control when each megatama hits. I am only assuming she can setup every possible mixup available in the corner especially, including but not limited to: high, low, empty low, empty jump high, throw, crossup, feint crossup, crossup high/low, maybe even fuzzies?... Etc and still be safe if she sets the megatama to completely cover her. Of course, there will need to be different formations per setup - for example, she won't be using a throw in a high/low setup and vice versa because of the blockstun/lack of blockstun, respectively. This is akin to Blazblue litchi's setup, though there will probably be key differences between the two, the ideas seem very similar. Several free, safe mixup attempts. All of her summons and stuff even aid in this aspect. Eyes help with crossups and unblocks, chocolate provides additional blockstun, and clouds prevent jumping out of certain setups. Once kaguya is hit the super goes away which is a big weakness but there will likely be meaty setups as well as dp baiting. They dp, she baits, free fc. I have high hopes for this super now that I have seen it in action. It won't be as op as daisharin though.

we got daisharin up in this bitch it goes without saying but, it was only a matter of time. someone called it first day, I remember. just don't have one persona card left

Jb, a zio, 2b, 5a are her best tools here though they are just ok tools. You kinda have to use everything as her because she has no clearly defined normal to use outside of jb, 2b and zio. Best to know the matchups really. I may have missed a normal or two.

She looks so elegant...! o///o you guys are lucky.

I take it the sweep is actually not a low? Can she zip around the screen with basic movement/normals with decent recovery or do her movement based moves feel like they shouldn't be whiffed?

Basically. please let's just dead this argument it's done. for the sake of civility let's all agree to disagree even if we all actually agree in some way and dont realize it lol. well, at least the ones who were posting valid points about the character. I personallly dont feel like I have learned much, but the information posted, heated as it was, is useful stuff to other players, so there was some beneficiaries.

That sounds likely to happen, or if not, straight damage for the character. Moves like hotenjin that takes a lot of combo time for example, will just get a damage buff, while other moves like tsu sword super will get some QOL buffs. Wonder what amane will get, his supers are kind of terrible.

Unfortunately, there is not enough juicy tidbits to occupy our restless minds in the meantime. So this thread has probably reached an impasse for the time being. I can't even say, "so how bout them 2.0 changes?" Because that shit the devs are doing is clearly still in a dream state at the moment. So... yeah...

Oh. Well, my argument was never that his mixup wasn't strong (or at least viable), and yours isn't that the character is unbalanced, so I don't think that is done with. Even still, I think his mixup is only decent at best. It's not the best in the game by any means, and it is in a time. It has a safe, slight ambiguity about the air dash pressure, and that's all he has going there that is potent. Having one good option doesn't mean the character is bad at all (rachel ja), so this isn't a bad thing. Technically, the only character with completely nonexistent mixup regarding high/low is amane. Anyone who has a resource that allows them to keep going safely in pressure should have good mixup in the sense that it has to be blocked no question - but again, this is nothing new. This has been going on for quite a bit, everyone thinks everyone is dumb, there really is no point of influence or learning or progress being made here and I predict that there will not be even if this is continued, so I am finished my piece. You guys have fun.

Because once you're in you are trapped. The longer the mouse is trapped the less likely it is for him to escape without being mauled by the cat. Mixup plays a part in this but it is predominantly the strong pressure relius exudes that leads to the mixup opportunities. Why not try to get away when there is a chance to get away and possibly out yomi the relius, punishing him? Outside of the air dash mixup which needs a prior setup, a lot of what relius has is either filler to keep you blocking or just plain obvious. It is FAIR, because if you block it he can keep going, and if you don't, he could potentially have wasted enough of his meter to where he now has to do solo oki on you which is not nearly as effective. In every single match with relius, eventually, he will get to the point where he CANNOT use ignis while pressuring you. Guaranteed. It is a balance.

This is not even an argument. Of course any human, gdlk or not, has the potential to be opened up by him especially as time goes on and he keeps getting respect, forcibly or otherwise. No one is arguing this. It's just that while strong, people, from what I am gathering, seem to think relius is overwhelmingly powerful just because he has this, when he has weaknesses that do a great job counterbalancing this start should he fail. Because it is VERY possible and not out of the blue at all to block relius on full meter, whether that wants to be believed or not.

Relius has had this same oppressive pressure schematic since extend and yet, he was considered low tier in that game even after being fleshed out before cp. it's not a system entirely new to the game. Many characters with a resource can do something similar to relius. Carl, rachel, litchi, all have a similar lockdown style. It's a part of the game and having to sit there and block while waiting for counter assault is nothing new. And it doesn't -necessarily- make the character insanely strong, though, as any strength should, it does help. I'm not seeing how this unbalances relius in particular, a strategy that has been around for ages already in many games. Under night inherently has this mechanic, gg is a very oppressive game, etc. even if relius was the only character in the game with lockdown, other character would have other strengths that make them powerful. Should this even have to be mentioned? The point, is that relius has weaknesses that work together with his strengths to make an overall balanced character. Yes, he has safe approach methods. Yes, he can keep you in pressure for awhile and potentially open you up. I would argue that the risk itself does not come from the neutral and instead from his offense and defense, since he has a very strong neutral game. Look at rachel, who also has an amazing neutral, a similar resource with similar strats to get the foe blocking. And she has the fastest overhead in the game. Guess what, pre cp she was considered only a tier in cs2 and she was mid low tier in extend. My point? Extended pressure does not break a character. It is the players responsibility to see through the constant jabs and block the uppercut. It is up to the same player to see when the opposition has run out of steam, and to utilize this time to go in. Lastly, the same player must do their research and see where the holes are. I can say for a fact that even relius having good airdash mixup, one of his most potent out of the limited array of -mixup- options he has, that there are holes between his strings if ib'd perfectly, which is usually only exploitable by a good dp. This is everything that has been said in so many different ways already, I don't even feel like posting this, but I think it needs to be known that there seems to be some miscommunication somewhere between everyone regarding this matter, because everyone is unknowingly agreeing with each other on this matter, and yet coming to different conclusions.

indeed this is a news and gameplay thread. for all intensive purposes you can call it the 'limited general thread', where we can only talk about bb. which is not a bad thing! but, as it is a general thread... we already have a news thread. this thread serves no meaningful purpose besides new loketest info. could we do without it? yes. we do have a chat room, after all. not that I want OR dont want this thread closed, I could care less, but there will be another created. how many times has dustloop been down this road already.

I agree 110% with myoro's post, nothing to add there, so i'm just going to like that. @annefrank, so you disagree with what it sounds like everything I mentioned about relius. alright. by the way, I wrote a guide on relius via pm (I have to look for it as it is a bit dusty), as well as filled in some of the relius forum matchup threads, I would appreciate if you took a look at those and let me know what you think. so now, if I am correct, and you do believe everything I have mentioned about relius is extremely abstract, I'll do this. I'll make a list. I'll appreciate if you answered each question with a yes or no and explain your reasoning: do you believe he has plenty of tools? can all of his moves be used in some way? does he shit out damage, mixups, and/or unblockables according to the game's statistics for each category? is his overdrive fair and balanced? does he get destroyed or destroy any other character? by destroy, I mean realistically, the matchup is somewhere around 6.5 for either character. *** this is basically everything I have said, that you so vehemently disagree with, sprouting some other nonsense completely unrelated to this situation, and ultimately, being completely and utterly dogmatic despite how you think you are acting. I just want you to know; yet again, I have done my research on this character, relius. I have played him for a long time. I understand plenty of this character's concepts, from zoning, to rushdown, to defense. I am not just talking out of my ass here, sir. I would really like you to think about these questions at a tournament level. let me know if this character completely dominates to the point of being oppressive, in any of his strengths. or, here's a better idea. how about we get lich in here to weigh his opinion, since he is a notable relius in the tournament scene.

Completely unrelated: I like how you used interim. I just took that word out in my previous post and then you used it. That is some freaky stuff. Ahem. Anyway, you have a point, it as recently announced. Was every character info announced though? I don't know of this stuff is going to stay...

It is hard to say what they are doing right at this moment. It does appear to be completely bizarre, but perhaps it will make more sense when, assuming some of his stuff stays, We get to see some more loketests.

Are there any more videos of Marie matches on YouTube/twitch/nico/some other site? I'm not finding any, sadly. Its surprising jp players haven't uploaded a compilation of their best Marie or a good one playing yet, because it seems they love to do so and has even done so with adachi. Anyway, I'll keep looking, but just wanted to ask you guys.

Excuse me. Do you play either of these two characters? Or this game, in fact? I have been playing rachel since bb existed and ragna has been one my most commonly played matches both on and offline. It is safe to say I have years of experience with this matchup, from ct all the way to cp. I can say with utmost confidence that this is a matchup that is only slightly in Rachel's favor. Can you? Or are you just agreeing with the masses? I can break this fucking matchup down to the fingernails if I have to, and I have no problem doing that even if it will take me awhile, explaining my point of view. Can you do that? Shit, if you can, I would love to hear it. I really would. Instead of doing shit like this, the -least- you could do is try to elaborate on why you disagree with what I have said. There is no reason to be condescending. I have ears (well eyes in this case) and am more than willing to listen (or see) you, jourdal, sg(?), or anyone else's thoughts regarding why they would disagree with me; and if I agree or disagree with any or all points made, i will say so and explain why. Respectfully. Let's not forget that this is a learning opportunity for everyone, not the beginning of a flame thread you mods try so hard to prevent. Now, your thoughts? I am willing to hear you guys out regarding the matter.

ragna rachel is close to even. :v and yes, relius would be a great example of balance right now. he has plenty of great tools, all moves in his arsenal can be used in some way, and he has a clearly defined mechanic with great synergy between all of his moves. he's not shitting out damage or mixup or unblockables, his overdrive is fair for the most part,and he doesn't get destroyed or utterly destroy any other character. unrelated, he is also both beginner friendly and a challenge to veterans. (I think he can be a bit more of a challenge, but it's whatever.)

Part of development is learning from ones mistakes. This is no different. There is of course a chance for the devs to screw up and make the game boring, just as there is a chance of it still being fun and balanced. Now I cannot say for sure whether mistakes will be learned from but neither can anyone else at the moment. Regardless, it will be interesting looking forward to what they come up with in the end.

azrael definitely isnt the char that everyone should get to. if everyone was top tier like him the game would likely take a turn for the worst. I personally think azrael is on the weaker end of the tops. nevertheless, he is a top tier, and at this point of development there is no refuting that. my point mostly is that if the game was to balance based off a character or tier, it should be A- to B+. these tend to be the most balanced characters in bb. strong, maybe has some bs, but not too strong/no blackholes. everyone's drive has a potential of making them broken, even characters with filler drives like makoto. so the devs always have to be careful with these sorts of things. it is generally agreed that extend was the closest in terms of strength between characters except for the top tiers as usual. someone mentioned before that cp added new mechanics which is true, so now the balance was sort of thrown off, but even still cp is quite balanced to the point where only the bottom tiers cant really win too much without supreme effort. once again my point is that by cp extend we should have a very balanced game, once we are finished being milked for our cash, and all the mechanics have been sorted out and everyone is doing at least -and, at most- 4k off their overdrives.

Her tools seem to suggest zoning, but I'm getting the impression she will be a little bit of that and pressure oriented. Her neutral game seems like it is going to be very powerful with that shotgun and other tools.

most of it is still relevant. some combos are different but the tactics remain the same. unblockables are really slow to start and are mostly used as surprise tactics. using them means you have to expect the foe to NOT expect them. otherwise, they are fairly easy to punish for a lot of characters, or at least escape. I do not believe he has a 100% safe unblockable setup anymore, but 236d, the ignis arm yoyo move, is probably the better of the two. it hits low and has multi hitting properties so even without the unblockable it does set up a mixup. 214d has more range but it does not help much. again, not the best attacks ever, but unblockables are unblockables. you mostly wont see them in high level play however. too slow.

Damn, he's not playing any games.

I am playing tonight. Fuck persona for abandoning me in my hour of need.