Digital Watches

So... you're still up for that money match, right?

"Why HOS can't fight Axl" Starring Unremarkable Axl Player #9352345897B

Okay, cool. I was unsure of that, but that does lend credence to the assertion that DAAs are far from unbeatable.

As a small note: my opinion on this has changed since a long long time ago when this thread was alive (lol resurrection). Blocking this is possible to do fairly consistently if you get to play eddie a lot.

It's definitely true, you just don't see it matter that often. I think DAAs happen during hitstop, but I'm sure that Baiken's counters, Axl's 623P, and Testament 214K all happen during hitstop.

I don't think there's any way to truly teach anyone this game. You can give them information, pointers, competition, whatever, but there's just shit you have to teach yourself, and you can't really be good until you do. But then again, I'm from the school thought that trial by fire is the best way to learn. Sure, if they have a question you know the answer to (Is that invincible? Why couldn't I break that throw? Could I mash out of that?), don't be a dick, but your own personal theory bullshit? They can subscribe to it or not and still get good. How to understand what's going on, predict, react, act accordingly? Don't bother trying to teach that. And playing easy could just end up giving people a big-fish small-pond problem. But above all, if you want players to stay, be nice to them socially. Some people have a problem with losing, and that's fine, they'll either get over it or quit, and there's nothing you can do about that. But almost no one wants to spend hours playing a game with people they don't want to be around. TL;DR version: Don't play down to them, answer anything you can, be competitive, don't be a dick.

Oh, yeah, that's right. I always forget to type the "-" . What's wrong with that syntax though? The intent is to show that the SD is between 0 and a fast move that can punish it. Although I guess the best way to do it would be: -Startup needed to punish move < SD > Startup needed to link from move (in blockstring). Although frankly, SD is kind of a limited tool, since it only really covers normal blocking on the first possible active frame, for which there are so many workarounds and variables in this game it's not even funny. It's actually more productive to just look up the level (or in special cases, listed blockstun) of a move, then compare it to the remaining active frames (depends on how meaty you hit) and the recovery frames of the move. Accounting for IB and FD, there are a lot of values a move can take, so it's important to have in mind what you actually want to do with it before you start looking at frame data, otherwise it's pretty much useless to do so.

For the record, my math was right, and included a conditional. ReaVer's math technically works, but it handles positive values in kind of a weird way (IE you can beat them if your move has startup of less than 0)

Who was the Axl? Anyway, you're right, Testament should go for a curse whenever possible, it's pretty much the only way to get the advantage.

Well, while I don't know that "Good" testaments spam warrant... Who are YOU playing? Actually, Stark came up with a funny way to beat it: Just input 236P after every normal testament might warrant (And that doesn't cancel into 6P).

SD is listed in the frame data charts. So is the startup of every move in the game. SD means "How many frames they're neutral before you are if you (normal) block the move." If it's negative, you're neutral before they are, and thus can punish it on block (assuming it's not cancellable). So essentially if (Startup < SD < 0), your move can punish the move on block. If you IB or FD, the SD changes according to the level of the move blocked. It also changes based on how meaty the move hits (Always in favor of the person doing the blocked move.) It's pretty easy.

Er. I didn't say it was? Read closer please. And for the record, I'm talking how often I see people use it, all factors considered. Venom has a great DAA, and NEEDS it because he has next to no other tools to get out of pressure. I don't Slayers use DAA as much, even though it may be an even better DAA, because he can just BDC out of stuff, and can use meter for much better things.

Bullshit. Venom needs his DAA like water. Axl's DAA is pretty impotent a good 70% of the time. Chipp's DAA is somewhere in between. A Baiken player will probably almost never use the normal DAA, etc.

Seems we're in agreement: FD if you want to get fucked up, Axl players.

I'm sure Daigo Umehara makes most people's "favorite SF players" list, too.

I dunno about "entire gameplan."

True dat. Eh, I understand that, but I'd like to know the situations you're talking about specifically, since you really would have to Fuujin within 2 frames of it starting to win out (IE Axl can't just block, even if he doesn't hit you). Like I said, there are definitely things in this match Axl can't do that he normally can, but it's still a pretty good tool for this match. 2H should be done on reaction to Fuujin or running. It gets out fast enough to be a real problem (of course no move is perfect. If Anji is fast and running he can jump it, but it's surprisingly fast to recover, so not that unsafe.) It is MOST DEFINITELY a strong solution to an approaching fuujin, even if Anji IB'd one of Axl's moves to get said Fuujin, since a lot of moves gatling into it. 5H is also a strong option, and carries the advantage of beating a lot of jump-ins, since it's got a very large hitbox and a few frames of upper-body invuln. Also, I dunno your playstyle, but a fairly competent Anji over here has historically had trouble following up IBing 2H, largely because although Fuujin's invuln makes it hard to get something out after recovering, the gatling to 6H (Which has a lot of active frames and counterhits for a fat chunk of damage) is a pretty viable way to beat it, albeit a predictive one. Eh. I agree to some extent, but Anji reeeeeally has to work at cracking Axl even once he's in close, since a well placed 2K or housou can fuck you up pretty bad, and fuujin followups are fairly easy to react to. Like any tough matchup, it's not unwinnable, but it takes a ton of patience and a good deal of outsmarting to pull off. Well, maybe I exaggerate a bit, but moreso than a lot of matches. Hopefully soon! You going to be anywhere near the inauguration?

Er, don't count SlyMoogle out so fast. I'm pretty sure TenKai (Especially Morehead) is a much stronger and more thriving scene than the Dominican Republic, sir. No offense. Eh, it's true that it's a good move, but its usage isn't that different from other matchups. Anji's got a lot of tools, actually, it's just that they're not that dangerous. I'd say 6K, 3K, 6P, and just plain AA 5P are pretty good for keeping Axl out. (Just not good enough. ) Nah, if Anji's gonna fuck you up, it's going to be once you let him do stuff. I say it's better to be on the offensive or far away (Whereas in many matchups you just plain want to be on the offensive all the time), and the mindset of letting Anji do something will eventually mean you taking damage. I disagree. In a lot of matchups, you want to FD and try to get either a jump or a f.S out to break pressure, but this isn't one of them. Anji is a character you really want to be IBing and waiting on. I'd say a well placed 2K or IB-->Throw is going to get you out of pressure more than anything else here. Maybe the occasional housou in a blockstring, but FDing won't help much, since Fuujin can beat the pushback, and Anji can bait/beat stuff pretty decently with autoguards (Again, 6K and 3K are strong tools).

The names are kinda unclear but... please tell me that's not the Chickenfat we know and love! That guy jumps around and gives up pressure so much, it's no wonder you're not that afraid of him. Anyway, I'd disagree with being able to Fuujin through things. A lot of those moves are only fuujin-able if they're used certain ways (For example, not in real blockstrings, 3P is especially a sketchy one to mention, as it's a great option to bait stuff like that, since the entire move is only a couple frames shorter than Fuujin's startup), and Axl can really adjust his pressure very easily to deal with Anji (Though no Rashousen, kids, sorry.) I wish this wasn't the case, but Anji is just pretty much free for an Axl player of equal skill. I've even played some Anjis that I'd consider way better than myself, and won pretty handily due to this matchup being so stupid. Because when it comes down to it, Anji really DOES have to make Axl afraid of Fuujin, but he just can't really effectively do it, since Axl has a lot of ways to make Anji hurt real bad without putting himself at risk of getting Fuujin'd (See: 2H, j.S, being really far away, just standing still, fast counter, f.S/3P/AA zoning, etc.). Sure, Axl has to be played weird for this to work, but once you get past the fact that fighting Anji isn't 100% generic, it's still a really disgustingly easy matchup. Much like HOS, you can honestly just sit back and wait for Anji to do something, counter accordingly (Smash his approach before it gets a chance to hit you), then keep up your Oki/pressure until he dies. SlyMoogle hits it right on when he says Anji has a prediction game on his hands, but for Axl, this game can almost all be reaction.

You can do much more damage with other options that take less time to execute, and still knock down. For example, if you block the first hit of Danzai, you can punish with a ton of different moves. If you IB it, you can run up (out of the second hit's range) if you're within 3 character widths of ABA. You can also use 623P-->FB, as the superflash will beat the super armor. Many of these options allow a BLoop in the corner for at least 50 more damage than 214P (depending on what you punish with). It's kind of like using it against VV. Sure it works, but it's not the best option by a long shot.

Well, I'm going to the inauguration and I'll be in town for a full week surrounding it. I wanna get matches in if at all humanly possible.

That's why I said that you should definitely do the combo if you get the move. But don't do the move. Seriously. Never if possible, although in some situations it's an okay idea (Faust scalpel, MAYBE VV, or especially if you buffer it backwards for crossup moves like Ouren or Warrant) But seriously: Doing those counters will not be good for you in the long run. You don't get enough damage for it to be a valuable risk, they don't get you out of enough situations to matter (and most of the time they DO work, there's a better option you should learn instead), and good players won't get scared of them, they'll bait them and kill you.

Whytesakura: I appreciate the thought, but your posts make it clear that you don't know how to play Axl. Axl can't keep people out worth shit unless their name is HOS, I-No, Anji, or Raou (All absurdly good matchups for Axl). And I guarantee you there's no magical player that can somehow work that collection of moves into a defensive fortress that covers the whole screen. Combined, Axl has prodigy anti-air, but ground space control is only about as good as anyone else, and playing keepaway games will get you your ass kicked against anyone who knows what they're doing in the matchup (and isn't playing one of the aforementioned). You can especially see this in comparison to, for example, a Venom or Testament player, or Zappa with triplets. And Senkei: The real problem Axl has with pressure games is lack of a jab, in addition to lack of a reversal. Just to address the DP thing: any meaty is either a guessing game (If the move hits only in one of the areas that his DPs can be invulnerable. Protip: A lot of common meaties hit both) or you have to block. The DPs wouldn't be so bad if they were safe on block. Most DPs aren't, but most DPs also force the opponent to reconsider doing meaties sometimes. A counter (even the good one) can't be done against meaties, and can be very bad risk-reward otherwise (The good one can work, but you either have to spend meter or be in the right place and CH to do any damage, and it'll more often be an offensive move rather than a defensive one). For things like tickthrows and not-quite-blockstrings, a jab is a nice way to get out without risking much if you're wrong, something May, for example, can do, but Axl can't. \ Sytha: You make it sound like YOU'RE the one who made me give up on 214 counters, lol. If any Axl players are reading this: Don't use them, seriously.

Maybe? I mean, if you recover fast enough, go for it. I haven't played a bridget in a while, and it didn't seem like that much of an issue then, really (You can really just counter the first part (623P) if you're really having trouble)

So, any way to deal with his YoYo OD? (The one where the bicycling bear cranks your guard gauge or rapes your life bar.) That's easy, avoid it or block it. It's not nearly as big a problem as runaway bridget flying around the screen on the other side. 236K can't hit overhead, so just block it low. The only hard thing is the jump followup RC into crossup D, which is much less threatening than things most characters can do, and takes 50% meter. Also, and I can't stress this enough: DO NOT THINK ABOUT 214P combos. The damage is terrible (45% prorate or something like that?) and trying the move is, in all but about three situations in the entire game, an unnecessary risk that you shouldn't be taking. I mean, of course you should do a combo if you get it off, but it's not THAT different from other combos, and thinking about it like that will make you want to do it more, which you shouldn't. Throw combos also prorate a lot, so getting damage isn't really as much your concern as setting up a reset or getting knockdown. Midscreen on lights, I almost always just do throw-->Rensen, unless I think I can set up a tech trap.