Digital Watches

I dunno about that comparison, except maybe Faust. From what I've seen of Japanese players and from playing a bunch of Justice, she seems to have a playstyle that's mostly about setting up stuff in advance and predicting the flow of the match to use a set of limited but strong tools to keep the opponent from having options. In this way I find her much more similar to what people call "Fortress Testament" than any other character, and gets to do it in a pretty unique way, since she has a bunch of tools that work very well for that purpose and just about nothing else. Projectiles that take forever to come out are for obvious reasons not great for applying too much pressure, and Justice only has pretty simple high-low and crossup mixup, but she also has a huge amount of tools in the air that make her defensive air game really strong... provided you can maneuver around without an airdash (Which requires knowing exactly when and how to jump at a given time). I definitely can see why people who can't get into the "fortress" lockdown game mentality would find the character frustrating, but I find the character really fun to play and (although it seems unlikely) hope they keep Justice in the game.

Unfortunately, with the mook being outdated and all the issues that have already been seen, I don't necessarily think the frame data is accurate. In AC frame data, level 6 (i.e. "unusual amount of stun") moves were listed as level 5. Has Axl Bomber been changed to be a normal lv 5 move? Anyway, these damage figures are basically telling me to do real combos instead of dropping them early to go for oki rashou setups. Even with perfect timing, you're taking a risk that they can reversal out for less reward than just doing a better combo from the same confirm and finishing it. 5K-c.S-5H Rensen FRC run 5H-6H, 2S will be a better confirm from 5K every time.

Notably: I've seen japanese players go for Rensen FRC Rashou in a blockstring, and it seems to be a raw pseudo-guaranteed (In that probably in theory someone with a frame 1 invincible super or DP could get out if their timing was perfect) setup. I've even seen a match or two where they literally blow 50% meter getting it twice off the oki from the first rashou KD. It's a good 140-ish damage you can get at the end of a high-guts character's lifebar pretty easily from a blockstring, and like all rashou setups, hitting with the rashou has the added benefit of making them FEAR it more later. You can probably also do air blockstring->Bomber (A false gap that's not that easy to do anything about if you're not throwing it out predictably) FRC rashou, which I suspect is also close to unescapable (IIRC A low bomber FRC should put you at ~+25. Still confirming whether it still does the same blockstun it did in AC, since the frame data is annoyingly missing that information)

Here's a stylin' empire-combo thing: Air hit 5H combos into 623P. So you can do e.g. Zappa: From the corner: c.S-5H-Rensen FRC 5H-6H, 2S-j.D-Bomber, 66 5H-623P (KD, 217 damage) Slayer: From midstage: c.S-5H-Rensen FRC, 66 5H-623P-421D, sj.HD-Kokuu 6FRC623H, Rensen-2 (KD, 190 damage)

Okay, here are some more combos along those lines, I'm not going to figure out what's optimal on every character tonight, but this should help with the science a bit. Axl 6H, 623S FRC, 5H-6H, 2S-sj.HD-Bomber, sj.HD-Bomber, Rensen-2 229 w/ knockdown Chipp 6H, c.S-5H, Rensen FRC 66 5H-6H, 2S-j.D-Bomber, 66 2S-j.D-Bomber, Rensen, 2 280 w/ knockdown

First test, pre-optimization: Dizzy: 6H, 623S FRC, 5H-6H, 2S, sj.D-Bomber, j.HD-Bomber, Rensen-2 244 w/ knockdown I think with some tweaking, this is going to be a lot more damage, especially against certain characters. Learn that link!

Those are cool! I am probably getting my PS3 back tonight, but until I can test stuff, I'm wondering if you can get 623S off of 6H without it being particularly meaty this game. I wouldn't be surprised, given the changes to both. As far as optimizing damage, I would bet that (given what I know about how Axl gets damage this version) you can get more off of that by doing 5H-6H, link to something off the 623S FRC (If 5H will connect. I suspect it will, but can't test until I have training mode in front of me.) You'll end up with fewer bomber loop reps, but those scale so heavily now that you will most likely get better damage that way. I'll test it to make sure later tonight, and post some variants if I find something higher-damage (Feel free to do so as well if you get to it before I do)

Quick thing: You get character-specific midscreen knockdown combos on slayer because he's one of the characters that a midscreen j.D-Bomber will connect against. In almost any situation you could go for knockdown in normally (With a combo into H benten), you can just go for 2S-j.D-Bomber or 2S-j.D-Bomber, Rensen. This does a more damage and carries further into the corner than most combos into H benten, you just have to be careful to make sure it's a knockdown setup. I haven't tested this in training mode much (mostly in matches) so I don't know the exact numbers, but there seems to be a window number of hits where he can tech out (I suspect it's something along the lines of too many hits to be untechable for long enough, but not enough hits that he falls too fast for it to be techable). I'll mess with this when I get my PS3 back, but if anyone else wants to figure it out I'm sure it's not hard (Get some different setups with different numbers of hits, heights, etc.) This works on Faust and Potemkin too, possibly also Justice?

Yeah. I figure some folks will hang for casuals and I'd rather stay longer in places I have to fly to.

What in the world is a low-profile frame? A low hurtbox is a low hurtbox.

Elvenshadow or someone else in japan/in contact with japanese players would be our best angle to do that I'd imagine.

Good thing googledocs is version-controlled so we can fix vandalism trivially. As far as organizational stuff, I consider this to be in early development since we don't have a good basis of information yet. Once the chart is more filled out, we can worry about secondary stuff like making a nice thread for it. I do agree that public edit probably should end though. So that's as good a thing to talk about here as any. What should the basis by which we allow edits to this spreadsheet be? It's certainly not going to be "anyone with a dustloop account."

I'd definitely say we should use that information when possible. It's just frustrating to not have information aggregated and the statistics transparent somewhere. This being a dustloop resource doesn't mean it's information primarily from dustloop members, just that it's something we can maintain in order to have a useful and current set of information at a given time.

I can help! An empire combo is a combo that's significantly harder to do than a more normal combo the character can do from the same confirm, but doesn't gain you anything significant (like knockdown or more damage) except for style points (Which are way worth it, obviously).

I dunno, where does it ever come from? If we get better information than we have, we can update it.

Since we're to the phase where people are talking about tier lists, I decided to make a matchup chart for +R that's maintained by Dustloop. It also conveniently doubles as a way to have a tier list that's done with a normal distribution, instead of by some stupid arbitrary metric no one's ever been able to explain to me coherently. Here's a spreadsheet. It's public and can be edited by anyone (That might change later, I dunno) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1MmNKSkE#gid=0 So basically, fill in matchups if you believe that you have a reasonable idea of what they are. Remember to fill in the matchup both ways (IE 7-3 FA-IN is 3-7 IN-FA), so the chart stays correct. Tiers are determined by how many standard deviations in total power the character is from the mean. Mean power is B-tier, and 1 SD = 1 letter. Character power is just a simple measure derived from the sum of all that character's matchups. Aaaand we can use this thread or the spreadsheet to discuss logistics, argue about matchups, etc.

I've changed them to grey so we can use red to denote bad matchups and green to denote good ones. I'm also just like, filling in matchups I think I know, so if anyone has better information, feel free to change stuff. I made edits public for now.

Alright, so what do we know about actual matchups in this game? Is there a recent chart we can start with?

Actually, I am making a spreadsheet. Someone fill in matchups. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtuQPCTNjkG-dGpCSGZjLWNhMUZudGpqdHQ1MmNKSkE#gid=0

IMO tiers should always be aggregated by doing a matchup chart, then plotting the totals as a normally distributed variable, and starting at B as the mean. Each standard-deviation-sized step would be a letter, and maybe we could have +/- for half-SD-sized steps if it seems appropriate. So E.G. S-Tier and D-tier characters would both be a 2-event (An instance of something 2 standard deviations from the mean, pretty unusual in a normal distribution) and it would thus be pretty significant for any character to be there. Most tier lists seem to be pretty arbitrarily divided into tiers, even if the order is derived from something concrete like a matchup chart.

Cool. I registered and it said "See you at TFC 2013"? Uh...

Yeah what he said.

Uh... Like: S: Faust, Zappa, Dizzy, Millia? (Millia's usually top in whatever game, I dunno) Secretly S: Axl A-B-ish range: Other folks Okay but not great: May, Venom

No GG registration?

Doesn't seem like it